SPECULATION Is Luke Rey's Father? - The Evidence For and Against

I wasn't suggesting Mengele did change but was suggesting a hypothetical. They do, however, have several things in common. They are both high ranking officials in fascist regimes, both have committed mass murder in service to that regime. Both possess useful talents that could be used to serve the greater good of their worlds. Both must truly change to be redeemed. They are most certainly comparable for this topic. So I'll ask again. If Mengele had truly changed, would you think it would be justified to let him go free instead of paying for his crimes. Please give me an answer this time. It doesn't matter who Ben's parents are. I guarantee that the people of the galaxy won't care who his parent's are when deciding his fate.

It also doesn't matter if he was conflicted. He still made the wrong choices and, no, you can't blame Snoke for Ben killing Han. There is no proof Snoke 'tricked' him into anything. Did he manipulate and influence Ben? Yes, but ultimately Ben had to choose the dark side and to commit murders up to and including his own father. He's to blame for his actions no one else.

I don't know the Buddha story so can't really speak to it.

 

I might have given you the wrong idea.

When I said...

...there was no real depth or agenda behind the it. With the thread spotlight on some aspects of the interrogations back then I was just thinking about the other tactic that must leave Poe and Rey feeling violated.

Being restrained to a table would be scary for me anyways. Once while caving I (stupidly) chose to attempt a section where I had to shuffle, lying down, through a long, thin gap between rocks shelves. I found myself wedged in and had to exhale completely to move. (The water level was rising too and by the time I got to the end my lips were touching the slimy rock above me while trying to suck in air). I've always been a bit claustrophobic since!

Yeah, I guess I would. Restricting people's movements without their consent is a form of abuse - it's why the police take kidnapping extremely seriously and why there are strict regulations and procedures in place for processing detainees.

It's certainly no coincidence that the only "legitimate" form of kidnapping and confinement is done by the those in society with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force and violence. Without consent iIt's abusive in my mind - even when deemed acceptable or necessary, in war or in peace.

 

I meant what I said in regards to the Rey being raped conversation that, for the most part, we've moved on from. My point was people were upset with or saw the Kylo/Rey thing as being rape, and my point was that interpation was compeletly based on gender not on what was actually happened, and the fact that this point was never brought up in regards to Poe (except when people are pushed to it) validates my point. I'm not saying it didn't.....scare you/make you umcomfortable etc... but that anyone who will claim Kylo/Rey was rape but not bring the same issues with with Kylo/Poe is exposing a sexist viewing of the scene, and if we are going to push for more women leads in movies like this, we can't view them in that way. We need to view Kylo/Rey the same as Kylo/Poe.

I don't mean to invalidate people being made uncomfortable with Kylo/Poe scene.

 

Once again. Yes. If, hypothetically, Mengele or Hitler, or whoever was a fairytale character in a space saga and they trully changed, and hypothetically if someone in that said imaginary GFFA who, I, the audience, trusted to know the true nature of reality and see people's true feelings, emotions and had the capacity to understand through a magical power (i.e. the Force) that indeed that person is truly repentant and now is and will be truly good, then yes, I would say, leave that person do good instead of punishing him for past wrongdoing which he truly repents to have done and punishment has zero zero meaning or merit, as surely it is better if a good person can do more good things if he has the chance to instead of stopping him from performing said good deeds. Punishment does not undo evil, compassion and love undo evil. The Buddha or SW jedi wisdom, you pick!

But no need for Mengele. If Palpatine was shown in SW to suddenly realise the evilness of his ways, to truly repent, to try to fix things, to atone and do good. Then even he should be allowed to do the good deeds he wishes to do if he is truly sincere and truly a new man. Punishment doesn't change what has happened. Only thing that can change is people who are changed start to do good deeds and are allowed to do them.

You are also continuously ignoring that Kylo Ren is presented so far as very conflicted and literally at war with himself. He does evil deeds yes, but it really doesn't look that he is at peace with himself and we know that he truly feels the pull to the light. What do you mean it doesn't matter if he was manipulated? That is nuts! Do you mean you think that a child molester is not to blame if because of him a child is damaged and influenced in his life because of what happened to him/her for years and the child should have resisted better and had better judgement? Wow.

As to the Buddhist story. Well, I am aware that you don't know the Buddhist story, that is precisely why I provided it, because it illustrates exactly the belief that individuals can be reformed more through compassion than through punishment. Anybody can be given a chance to change and transform. Even a murderer and serial psycho such as Angulimala.
I did provide a brief summary of the story and also a link to the Wikipedia page for your further perusal.

EDIT: Anyway. It's fine if you cannot see things the way I do. Sorry if that came off as angry. I regret coming back to this thread after I vowed last time that I won't. Now back to my imaginary Zen hut in the mountains.

 

Again, I never said slavery wasn't evil. It is, but, it's not nearly as evil in comparison to mass murder. Yes she calls them slaves but they escape like a day later so they didn't really suffer in slavery so it doesn't measure up to that Ben did in TFA.

I'm sorry but 'all' FO personnel weren't in that meeting. Only the three leaders of the FO were. Kylo never argued against it indicating his approval of the action thus making him culpable along with the other two. He was in charge of the attack on Maz's castle whether he was active fighting there or not. It was on his order that pulled out indicating he was in command of all FO forces there. Therefore, he's responsible for the results which is another mass murder of civilians.

 

Well Kylo ordered the deaths of some villages, Sorsha put two people in slavery while attempting to kill and infant...........

As I showed you, Kylo had zero input regarding the weapon. In the movie he is standing back wile Snoke and Hux talk about it. Your position is basically because he didn't say anything about not using the weapon he is as guilty as the two who decided to two use it. Fine, if thats your position. But you have to be consistent. If no FO said anything they are just as guilty. Their crime is the same as Kylo's. And you can't say Kylo has influence becaues clearly he doesn't, he wasn't involved in the conversation, he didn't give input, he wasn't asked for his opinion etc....

Kylo was off in the woods during the attack, he wasn't leading it or anything like that. We don't see who orders the attack on Maz's castle. Thats important because of the village attack. Kylo doesn't kill any of hte villages, his stormtroopers do that on his orders. If Hux or Snoke are the one who ordered the attack on Maz's castle and Kylo is just following their orders, they are the mass murders just as Kylo is the murderer in the village. We have to be consistent.

 

@Canadian Ronin How did I manage to offend you so much as to merit your extremely negative rating?
Me and @Shadrac are in a heated disagreement indeed but even so we are not giving ourselves FO badges.

From what I read you have very similar understanding as mine regarding redemption I do so I'm rather confused.

And boy do I regret waddling in this thread against my better judgement...

 

Hey! No need to get angry. We're just having a friendly conversation here. You started the conversation and kept responding so I did likewise. Clearly we disagree philosophically when it comes to justice but at least we understand each other better. Thank you for answering my question and for what I thought was an enjoyable debate. I missed the link for the Buddha story but will go back and check it out. BTW; I'm all for redemption but believe there is a point where a person has done too much to be allowed to simply walk away. Mass murderers like Mengele, Kylo/Ben and Anakin fall into that category for me and I imagine Angulimala would to. We can agree to disagree on that. See you around the forum.

 

Wondering when the subject of Rey's relationship to Luke will reappear...













(Recognizing of course that I contributed greatly to taking this whole thread on a MASSIVE tangent or three...)

 

It's always your fault!

So back to topic then: Rey is not Luke's daughter! Ha!

 

You have captured the entire essence of this thread in one gif. Well done indeed!

 

"Jesus Christ! Which part of when someone repeatedly says she does not wish to talk to you anymore you do not get?!"

Its on you not to interact with someone on a public forum, not them. If you don't wish to speak to someone anymore, stop responding them or in an extreme case put them on your ignore list. Calling someone out in public like you did, trying to shame them into leaving you alone or something is something I didn't like. If you don't wish to speak to someone, just stop responding them.

In private its a different matter. But this is a public forum, anyone who is a member can respond to anyone/anything they want. You not wanting someone to respond to you is meaningless.

 

P.S. Thanks, @Shadrac for your friendly attitude. Cheers.

 

my guess.....whent here is something new to talk about regarding it or when someone new shows up to bring up the old topics again.

 

Fair point. Mea Culpa. I already apologised to the person in question. And truly repented sounding angrier than I was. We are cool.

 

She is!

 

Wasn't she taking the baby to her mother who was going to kill the baby and wasn't actually planning to kill the child herself?

No other member of the FO had a place to question the decision like Kylo did so that doesn't quite equate. You're right though that not saying anything doesn't quite equal approval of the decision either but not speaking out against it like he did the second time does indicate at least tacit approval of the decision the first time.

It is true that Kylo may not have ordered the attack but he was clearly in command of the forces that carried out the attack as evidenced by him giving the order to pull out and the attacking forces obeying that order. That he was in a command position makes him at least partially responsible for what they did. Hux or Snoke may share that responsibility if they gave the original order but it doesn't absolve Kylo of his responsibility in the matter.

 

No, she is NOT!

 

Rey using Anakin's lightsaber AND she looks to be getting a scar... kind like Anakin's in RotS. Nahhhh... doesn't mean anything.







HOLY CRAP... they even LOOK RELATED.

 

Anytime! I wish I had access to all these awesome gifs.