Kylo is a Liar

It wouldn't.
We are on the same page here.

 

Grt ready for 2 years of Rey Retcon.

 

Well at least people couldn't complain they aren't doing things like George would then

 

He might be. We don't know and that's the fun of it!

 

I still don't think Kylo is a liar. He was just relaying what Snoke told him and gaslighting Rey with it to desperately try to convince her to join him.

This thread should be "Snoke the liar".

(Still think her parents are nobodies, but am just contemplating on Kylo's character.)

 

Okay, here is the thing, Rey was a proficient with weaponry (her staff) before any Jedi training, versus Luke who was quite green to any combat.

She also have taken her loses, just not embarrassing loses like Luke. So when it comes time for Rey to fight, she uses the Force now in conjunction with her already present skill.

How does that make her a Mary Sue as I've heard others call her?

She is a badass though, and if what she has accomplished so far bothers you, then stay tuned... there is more disappointment for you to come I bet

 

Here's the thing: If anyone is lying, it's Rey, not Kylo. I'll explain:

The movie establishes a connection between Rey and Kylo that includes sharing memories. She sees Luke trying to kill Kylo because that's how Kylo experienced it and remembers it. Luke of course has a different memory of how this went. Neither is lying -- we have two perspectives on a single truth. The movie also establishes that Kylo doesn't need to lie to manipulate someone, as evidenced by how he dispatched Snoke, basically mentally narrating how he was going to kill Snoke -- Snoke simply misinterpretted this narration.

Regarding Rey's parentage, Kylo sees Rey's memory. Rey has blocked this out, tragically so, in that she has convinced herself to believe that she comes from a loving family that will one day return to her. Kylo says, no, that's not your memory -- your memory is that they were terrible parents who sold you off. He tells her to look at her own memory. She does, and recognizes he is right.

All Kylo is doing is transcribing Rey's own memory to her, encouraging her to look at it. Perhaps we are dealing with a situation similar to Luke trying to murder Kylo -- maybe there is a different perspective on Rey's origins. One idea -- which is a stretch -- is that she really is a Solo, Skywalker, or Kenobi, and somehow was kidnapped or presumed dead and taken in by lowlifes who then sold her off. So her memory would be correct, but not the entire truth.

Rey being a "nobody" is consistent with the theme of the film and the last shot of the movie, so I think it's safe to assume this take on Rey's origins is correct. Regardless, it's Rey who tells this story, not Kylo. If there is a lie, it lies within her.

 

Kylo Ren lying makes sense. However, you now have to explain a big plot hole as to why Luke wouldn’t recognize his own daughter or what happened. I feel Rian Johnson knew that if he made her Luke’s kid they would have to explain why he is a bad parent like Han and Leia were.

The only way Rey Skywalker can make sense is that in episode ix, Rey would have to say “ok I am a Skywalker but I don’t care because that’s not what makes me special or a good person, it’s my actions.”

 

excellent point. he does lie in that moment and i remember thinking to myself: wow, he just did that.

but then he knows Hux. all too well.
so he's definitely capable of lying.
i just don't see any artifice in his conversation with Rey.

 

He lies to Snoke a number of times in TFA, by both commission ("He means nothing to me") and omission--not telling Snoke all the truth ("I feel it again. The call to the Light. Supreme Leader Snoke senses it"). But he's pretty terrible at it.

 

According to Rian Johnson Kylo isn't lying, but even he says that ultimately that's up to JJ. I don't think JJ is going to change anything on that front though because it would go against the entire theme of The Last Jedi for no good purpose.

 

oh absolutely. that's why Luke doesn't even bother trying to reason with him.
Ben needs to cool down and get some perspective before he'll even be willing to listen.

but i do think between Ben and Rey there's no hiding: they can see each other in the Force, so i feel like they would know if the other was lying.

he is terrible at it. he's even terrible at it when he lies to Hux, frankly.

i guess i go back to this being more about his relationship with Rey.
as far as we know he's never lied to her.
he's deluded, of course, but he's never pretended to be anything he's not.
including admitting that he's a monster.

 

Yes, I think it is pointless for Ben to try to lie to Rey, and vice versa. They can see into each other's minds too clearly.

 

Yes, it certainly would make a difference, because if he reveals to her that they are siblings/cousins then he is also revealing that he killed a member of the family she was always looking for.

Kylo to Rey: "You're my sister/cousin, join me." Rey back to Kylo: "Umm, no because that means you killed my dad/uncle!"
versus
Kylo to Rey: "Admit it, you're no one, join me and you can finally be special" Much more convincing to join him.

Now do I ultimately think he's telling the truth? Yes. Is it guaranteed? No. Snoke says early something like "Manipulate someone's weakness and you can create a sharp tool." He could be manipulating her weakness (a fear of being no-one and a desire to be someone) to achieve his own agenda.

 

I was trying to remember that quote... Wasn't it "manipulating a mad [or rabid] cur and you make/create a sharp [something]"...? I thought he was talking about Hux, but then it struck me that maybe Snoke was talking about Ben.

 

Where did Rian Johnson say that Kylo isn't lying? Is there an article/video of an interview where he said this? If so can you please post this? That way we can end this debate now haha. Speculation/interpretation over material in a film is one thing, but direct answers from the filmaker's is another.

 

Rian Johnson:

 

I thought he called him that and then followed it with the statement about manipulating one's weakness can create a sharp tool. Maybe I'm wrong. Will have to keep my ears open for this at my next viewing.

 

he was talking about Hux, but it was an implied slight to Ben.

he says: you probably wonder why i keep a rabid cur like that.
and then he says something about manipulating a weakness to forge a sharp tool.
something along those lines.