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The Fate of Ben Solo

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by FN-3263827, Jan 29, 2016.

?

If redeemed, what will become of Ben Solo?

  1. He should sacrifice himself and die

    18 vote(s)
    24.0%

  2. He should be exiled

    9 vote(s)
    12.0%

  3. He should quiety come home and retire to a life of atonement

    18 vote(s)
    24.0%

  4. He'll be given a hero's welcome: no one will know who he was anyway

    8 vote(s)
    10.7%

  5. He'll be given a hero's welcome: it's Disney; consequences don't matter so long the galaxy is saved

    5 vote(s)
    6.7%

  6. Can't answer because he can't be saved

    17 vote(s)
    22.7%
Page 2 of 17
  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Well, I guess if he saved Leia or Luke or to some extent Rey, that might be enough to redeem him in the eyes of the viewer...
    After all, he didn't shoot the villagers, he didn't blow up the Hosnian system (I am really stretching here!) and Han kind of had it coming :p
    But yes, he could be redeemed within the universe and one of the above acts might make us feel differently about him too.

    It was funny with Vader. Being a part of the Alderaan destruction etc was of course awful. But seeing him butcher the younglings, himself, with his lightsaber was incredibly graphic (without actually witnessing it). To be honest, it was almost too unbelievable). It ended up feeling like more of a plot device than actual event, if you know what I mean?
     
    #21 master_shaitan, Feb 9, 2016
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    that's a interesting thought ~ what happens if Leia buys the farm? how does that change him or the possibility of him coming home? there's still Luke. i would think Luke would not let it lie. Ben is his failure too, in a sense.

    would Luke correct his failure by destroying it? perhaps, if it's necessary? but Vader seemed pretty necessary too.

    those really do seem to be the options. i agree that we never needed to see Anakin's horrors. we already knew Vader was an evil man. shoving it in our noses creates a weird disconnect. but i would argue that Kylo Ren's sins thus far have not exceeded Vader's except where people may ascribe greater weight to killing Han. but i would argue that killing children and your own wife have to be pretty high up on that list of what people consider "irredeemable" crimes.

    we also could go down a path of argument as to whether Vader is responsible for Alderaan or complicit by his association with the Empire. what do we do with war criminals who don't pull the trigger? the same is true for Kylo Ren.

    personally, i would prefer Han Solo's legacy not go down in flames. so when you ask the quesiton "would we want that?" i can answer that i wouldn't. the story is tragic enough without saddling Leia with a murdered husband and an irredeemable (and consequently dead) son. i also keep asking myself the perennial Star Wars question: WWLD?

    what would Luke do?

    see my question above to @master_shaitan : . what do you think is the right thing to do with war criminals who don't pull the trigger? specifically with regard to the Hosnian system.

    you have come up with some interesting scenarios. we've never seen whether the Force can "heal" (physically or psychologically) have we? that would definitely be something new. thanks for things to think about!
     
    #22 FN-3263827, Feb 9, 2016
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  3. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    An interesting question indeed. Vader might not have been the one to "pull the trigger" on the Death Star, but when we last see him in Revenge of the Sith watching with Palpatine the construction of the first Death Star and then later, in A New Hope, first meet him as someone desperately seeking the plans, we could begin to infer he is instrumental in some way in its very existence.

    Rogue One should reveal more about that for us to have a better understanding of Vader's involvement and stance toward the station.

    And even there I think, using my proposed scene with Vader intervening against the Death Star's first usage...

    ...that it could also be revealed Vader was, in A New Hope, simply doing his master's bidding and perhaps, inwardly, wasn't really that thrilled the Death Star was sort of taking his place and/or being deemed more powerful than the Force.

    You are most welcome!

    I really love considering the possibilities, and I think it could be great to see Luke exercise some new Force abilities in meaningful ways.

    JediMasterRobert
     
    #23 JediMasterRobert, Feb 9, 2016
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    from what we know of Kylo Ren, he much more clearly disapproves of Starkiller. we're not entirely privvy to why, but it could his moral conflict. given everything else we know about Ren, even a moral compunction might be tainted by his hatred or competition with Hux, we don't have enough information. we only know he doesn't want them to fire the weapon.

    Vader never seems to have a moral (or otherwise) problem with the Death Star as we're shown in the OT. seeing what they do with him in Rogue One should be interesting, but i suspect they'll make him deliberately villainous.
     
    #24 FN-3263827, Feb 9, 2016
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  5. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I remember the scene (included in the Official Trailer): the bright red glow in front of him as the energy beam, compositionally speaking, intersects his silhouette from right to left.

    Could be symbolic.

    The early chatter online about Rogue One seems to suggest a relentless Vader to be portrayed. Many people (Kylo included!) would prefer that, but they could have that and something like what I have proposed, at the links, above to give him a moment where he wasn't a total monster.

    I think, with relation to Ben/Kylo, it could be helpful to further reveal the monstrosity Snoke would have Kylo believe Vader to be was still secretly protective of his mother.

    I also think, if Kylo is alive to learn the truth about Vader, that it wasn't mere "sentiment," that would help him realize the grandfather he believes he is idolizing was not the person he was made out to be. Who knows what lies Snoke filled Ben's mind with, but I'm sure he left out the part about Anakin/Vader's turn being primarily due to his wish to protect Padme.

    Perhaps Luke or Leia will have the opportunity to enlighten Ben/Kylo about that.

    JediMasterRobert
     
    #25 JediMasterRobert, Feb 9, 2016
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    it's a really interesting moment because it impresses on the viewer that he's "lording" over the destruction. even in sequence, that's how it most readily can be interpreted. i feel like it's not until you've seen the whole film and gotten to know Ren better that revisiting that moment takes on other possible interpretations.

    i'm very wary of a "revisionist" Vader. i feel like one of the most crucial key differences between Vader and Kylo Ren is that Vader knew and understood the Empire he chose to serve. Ren is just Snoke's puppet, completely brainwashed and without independent agency. i don't think it makes sense for Vader to suffer the kind of conflict Ren is suffering. but that could just be me. while the characters share some similarities, i prefer a wide berth between them or Ren just becomes Anakin 2.0 and that's not really interesting to me.

    yeah, i would really like to get a better sense of Ren's actual relationship with the legacy of Vader ~ how much of it is driven or manipulated by Snoke, what he learned from Luke, how he makes sense of it all. and how it ties into whatever Snoke's "promised" him through years of grooming.
     
    #26 FN-3263827, Feb 9, 2016
  7. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    i've swayed back and forth with this, and i will probably continue to do so until the movie shows us what happens with ben.

    taken as a boy. brainwashed into doing unspeakable things. he's conflicted... he feels a pull to the light.

    ignoring the fact that this is star wars and not real life for a second... i'm a parent and i would want him back, and there would be NOTHING to forgive.. nothing. The child that was taken did not commit any heinous crimes.. Snoke did.

    that's conjecture and down to everyone's personal point of view of course.. most star wars fans will never forgive the on-screen character that killed Han Solo.

    me? i want to be challenged by characters/storylines in the films i watch and the books i read. the redemption and return to his family and society of Ben Solo would be a challenge that i would be fascinated to see tackled.

    in real life and in the star wars universe... i like to think that anyone can be saved. if someone has heart.. then they can turn it around. do i think Ben Solo is still in there and has some heart? yeah i hope so, both as a parent and a star wars fan.
     
    #27 Maximus, Feb 11, 2016
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    thanks for this well-articulated response.

    i am saddened to think "most" Star Wars fans would be so unforgiving of Han Solo's death ~ firstly because that's not what Star Wars ever taught me personally, but also because Han Solo has no legacy if his son just goes down a Dark drain.

    but i agree that a redemption would challenge the audience. i know people say "we've seen that before with Vader" but Vader took the easy way out ~ he died and never had to face a life after turning. no one ever had to reconcile a "good" Anakin with one who murdered children.

    and i also agree that Ben's problems don't seem to be of his own making (at least initially ~ now he's ramping up to really bad choices and cornering himself in bad ways). Vader was motivated by power (you could argue grief, but he wouldn't have had the grief if he hadn't already given in to the desire for power). Ben seems to be motivated by loneliness (or at least a sense of disconnect; power is just his way of ascribing himself a place of belonging in the galaxy). he has no sense of identity, so wearing the one Snoke's given him is the best he can do.

    the words he says right before the fight at the end carry a heavy burden: "It's just us now. Han Solo can't save you now." he's saying it to Finn and Rey, but he's also saying it to himself. and contrary to what it suggests, he's really confessing that he feels more lost than ever.
     
    #28 FN-3263827, Feb 11, 2016
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  9. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Good points.

    #TeamKylo(kylo ren)
     
    #29 master_shaitan, Feb 11, 2016
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  10. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    you may be the first person to say that about anything i have ever said or written before lol.. thank you!

    great points.

    i suppose the big question here is... what's the great ending for this trilogy? we already know that Han won't be there at the end. If Ben hasn't been redeemed then it won't be a happy ending for Leia even if the FO are defeated.

    this is only my point of view, but to me Ben is the story so far. What has happened to him and what will happen to him.
    do we get the big fan fair happy ending if Ben is dead or still DS? to me no, but everyone will see the story differently at this early stage and anything is possible.
     
    #30 Maximus, Feb 11, 2016
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  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    that is the big question, isn't it? i will be very sad if Ben isn't redeemed because that means Han failed, Leia failed, Luke failed.

    what the heck kind of Star Wars story is that? hahaha

    and also i just don't want Ben to fail. he deserves a fighting chance and i would be very satisfied to watch Rey have to struggle to overcome her anger to give him that ~ she can teach him strength of will. then they can help one another save the galaxy together Light & Dark. that'd be Disney enough, wouldn't it?
     
    #31 FN-3263827, Feb 11, 2016
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  12. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    I completely agree with this! It is good to see other people thinking/feeling as I do. It baffles me how many people on SW forums simply do not get all this at all...

    Exactly! It is imperative that Ben Solo is redeemed. Otherwise Han's death/sacrifice would have been for nothing. And Leia's losses would be catastrophic - lost her home planet, adoptive parents, her husband and her son?! No, that's not going to happen.
    In one way or another Ben Solo will be brought back.

    Here are two excerpts from SW novelizations (one from TFA junior novelization and the other one from the retelling of ANH) that to me are very telling and foreshadow clearly what the fate of Ben Solo is. (Even without them from what I have seen in TFA I already knew this, but some people seem to have their heads in the sand and are blind to the obvious...

    Ben Solo is to be redeemed. It will be extremely bad storytelling if he is not. His father forgave him (Han touching his son's face before falling). We will also forgive him.
    What is interesting is the last line apart from explicitly saying Han forgave his son, (this is from the TFA junior novelization) raises an important question. What does Kylo have to forgive his father for?!

    There is so much we still don't know about the circumstances of how and why Ben Solo joined the FO and what actually really happened. I suspect those will turn out to be crucial and will drastically change how Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is perceived.

    [​IMG]

    Many people say that Kylo Ren is irredeemable because he killed Han Solo. But on the contrary. I think the Starkiller Base bridge Han and Ben scene was in fact the beginning of Ben Solo's redemption arc. To me it was as if a big neon sign lit up : "Take Heed: Redemption Arc Happening Right Now!"
    Some people just failed to see it.

    Another extremely interesting quote I came across recently is from Alex Bracken 's retelling of A New Hope, which first of all sheds light on why Han chose to name his son Ben to honor Ben Kenobi and IMO is very much foreshadowing Han's sacrifice for his son which mirrors the selfless act of courage by Obi-Wan.

    [​IMG]

    The fate of Ben Solo so far is tragic. He has been manipulated from a young age and we should be feeling sympathy for him and be rooting for him to eventually go back to the light and to his family. If not for him, then for Han's and Leia's sake.

    #TeamBenSolo (kylo ren)
     
    #32 Obi-Wan Solo, Feb 20, 2016
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    wow! i hadn't seen that passage from the new ANH novelization. that's really interesting.

    and yes: we don't know why Ben feels betrayed and disappointed by his father.
    it could be as simple as: Daddy, you didn't protect me from Snoke.

    frankly, that would be enough.

    and i'm going to shut up now or otherwise i'll go on a rant ~ and, really, you've already said it all nicely.

    #TeamBenSoloIndeed
     
    #33 FN-3263827, Feb 20, 2016
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  14. bluemilk7

    bluemilk7 Rebelscum

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    as much as i don't want another repeat of anakin skywalker, i still believe ben solo will be redeemed. i hope he doesn't die.. but it'll most likely happen. if adam driver weren't such a versatile actor, things might be different?
     
    #34 bluemilk7, Feb 20, 2016
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    how do you mean? it seems like it would be a waste to kill Adam Driver, no? for that very reason?
     
    #35 FN-3263827, Feb 20, 2016
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  16. Maximus

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    Great post @Obi-Wan Solo

    If kylo is darker in ep8 and kills any more loved characters... it will be challenging for so many to continue to hope for Ben's redemption. He is such a deep character, I can't wait to see what happens.
     
    #36 Maximus, Feb 21, 2016
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i agree he's likely to do some very bad things in viii. i also agree that if they don't start to turn him in viii, it may not work for audiences to have him be "suddenly" redeemed in ix.

    i'm really crossing my fingers that they catch him before the end of viii so that he and Uncle Luke can have it out, we can get to the crux of his damage, and at least set things in motion.
     
    #37 FN-3263827, Feb 21, 2016
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  18. Obi-Wan Solo

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    Thanks!

    I agree. Him going a bit more dark in ep. 8 is not a huge problem I think, but of course, as soon as he doesn't kill any more of the loved characters.
    He could instead kill Hux (crossguard)They hate each other's guts as it is and I suspect Hux will do something to earn his death by Kylo. And then in IX Kylo will kill Snoke (most probably teaming up with Rey).

    In VIII there should be something that will explain the events that drove Ben Solo to where we found him in TFA - a flashback, force vision, dream? that will give the rest of the audience a more clear reason(s) to feel sympathy for Kylo...I'm saying "the rest", because I already do.

    Yes, the turn has to happen/begin to happen by the end of VIII.
    I'm crossing my fingers too.
     
    #38 Obi-Wan Solo, Feb 21, 2016
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  19. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    it'll be interesting to see where the Ren/Hux thing is going. they've been set up in this antagonistic relationship rather purposefully.
    i feel like whatever Snoke managed to convince Ben about with regards to the necessity of the rise of the FO, it has already been undermined by Hux's radicalism.

    so in terms of seeing "how stuff happened", i'd really like to know how Kylo Ren has been convinced to justify his allegiance. i think that might also help audiences understand him better.

    right now he still feels like more of a victim in many ways. i'd really like to know there's a thinking person in there somewhere who's capable of sorting through the lies.
     
    #39 FN-3263827, Feb 22, 2016
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  20. Obi-Wan Solo

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    Yes. I'm very curious as well. Kylo (in the novelization and the script) is shown to despise Hux, and Hux most certainly hates him.
    I somehow feel that the resentment and distrust that Kylo has for Hux going forth may prove to be a turning point (or part of it) for Kylo questioning himself being on the side of the FO. Or maybe something Hux does under orders from Snoke that shakes Kylo out of his allegiance and makes him question things...
    We have already seen in the movie that Kylo is not entirely online with the actions of Snoke and Hux - the use of the Starkiller Base for one is something that he seems to object. The 1st instance he doesn't join Hux Nazi-rally and instead is shown in silence watching the beam pass (this could mean many things, but somehow I have the feeling he may not approve of it) and the 2nd instance he even voices an implicit objection and is genuinely shocked that they plan to use the weapon again (and we can assume that Kylo must know that his mother is most probably on the targeted planet)...

    Otherwise Kylo sounds as someone who believes in the FO - at least the novelization gives that impression. He sounds indoctrinated.

    For instance when he has "frozen" Rey in the forest of Takodana there is the following dialogue that shows that he believes the FO to be in the right:

    But, I'm with you. I totally want to know what made Ben Solo turn and how did Snoke manage to do that. This I think is key!
     
    #40 Obi-Wan Solo, Feb 22, 2016
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