THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I can see what you mean. Obviously toxicity stemming from racism, sexism, etc. is really serious and messed up, and hardly comparable to toxicity based on other things.

I guess what I mean is that when a lot of fans have resorted to essentially rooting against the franchise, the fandom is clearly not healthy.

 

The context of his words are clear. I don't understand how they can be interpreted any other way. Hate away, but the claim that he rejects criticism was unfounded.

 

Yes they are. And I don't understand how they can't be interpreted any other way. I don't hate anyone, but I don't think that's unfounded at all. We're just going to disagree.

 

I guess I'm confused by what you expect?

If I made a piece of media and was truly proud of what I made, I wouldn't apologize if someone didn't like it. I'd point out what I liked about my creation, and possibly how my critics have misunderstood what I intended to do.

I mean sure, you could turn it around and say these are excuses. And maybe that could indeed be the case.

But what do you want? Because let's assume RJ truly is proud of his work (and considering that despite the backlash, many fans do truly enjoy the film, this is certainly a distinct possibility if not probability). Do you prefer that he backtrack, and try to apologize to you for your subjective interpretation of the film? Or, as the creator, does he not have the right to try and explain himself?

I mean, other than if someone personally commissioned out of their own pocket for the majority of the budget for this movie to be made, I can't possibly understand the sheer entitlement needed to think that a creator not even be allowed to defend his work. It's absurd.

 

Just a quick recap because it was my question that kind of got lost in the middle of all this stuff. I asked for evidence that Lucasfilm was attacking fans with reasonable concerns about the film. So far no one has produced a clear example. I will also make this clear. People in this thread have legitimate complaints about this film and have many times stated those concerns well. They're definitely entitled to their opinions.

My disagreement is people complaining about Lucasfilm attacking reasonable fans and that's not happening. We even posted tweets of RJ having reasonable conversations with fans. I posted tweets of him apologizing to fans who expressed their disappointment.

The idea that Lucasfilm is attacking fans and being tone deaf to our concerns is unfounded. These claims are just the product of the outrage machine. Many of these YouTube videos are manufacturing nonsense for views.

 

Okay, I've stated over and over where my issues with RJ come from. I think I already laid out why I came to these conclusions. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I feel entitled to anything from him. I've said repeatedly that I don't want or expect any apology from him or anyone for not liking this movie. What do I want from him? Nothing, except to pipe down and let things die down.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 9, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 9, 2018 ---

People did give you names and examples, but every one was blown off as just a joke or that doesn't count. I happen to think that a couple of different freelance writers who were on the Lucasfilm payroll writing SW books going off on profanity laden Twitter rants about fans does indeed count. Is there really any way to know for sure if Lucasfilm is tone deaf to concerns at this point? It seems very quiet, and there's plenty of rumors of firings but nothing has been confirmed and probably won't be for a while.

 

I think 'attacks' are perceived as coming from LFL supporters and people vehemently defending the film in comments sections, as well as clickbait articles/websites, YT channels, etc. more so than the creators. However, I think it is fair to say, some could be interpreted as being openly dismissive. See Rian's comment(s) below, previously from Twitter. A lot of people speculated on many things, and he seems to be relishing the total full scale subversion here. Below that, Andi Gutierrez. Now, as I have stated many times, social media is poison and things get lost in translation, so it would be best to walk that line more carefully. Of course they don't have to, but many feel like if they put themselves in this position, it would end in career termination as you are still representing the company on your personal account. There are more examples of dismissive or unnecessary flame stoking comments from various individuals (see James Mangold). It doesn't make me go crazy, but I do wonder what they are thinking will be the outcome. The best advice I ever received - "Pick your battles." A little tact, silence and all around ignoring goes a long way.


https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2018...delicious-fanboy-tears-new-star-wars-trilogy/

One of the things that surprised a lot of people about this film is the way you approached some of the mysteries J.J. created in the previous film. I believe the term is that there were a lot of "fanboy tears" about what you decided to do...

Rian:
[laughs] Delicious fanboy tears!

 

This is a good, fair post. Now prepare yourself for the "TLJ lovers/Rian Johnson fan club/Everything is sunshine, rainbows and unicorns with SW" brigade that's coming your way.

 

Very solid post. Just a couple of notes... Rian Johnson was pretty much finished writing and had started filming The Last Jedi before TFA was released. The idea he was subverting theories doesn't make sense because they didn't exist yet. I don't know why Andi Gutierrez's picture from 2015 is relevant today, but someone found it to manufacturing outrage.

 

I like this question because was The Last Jedi really that subversive? The biggest question was about Rey parents. It was easily the most debated topic after TFA. The consensus in our Rey Parents thread was that Rey was a nobody. There was some debate about Snoke's history, whether Finn was force sensitive, and the history of the Knights of Ren. I never found those topic essential to the story. The Last Jedi answered the 3 big questions: what happened to Luke, why did Ben turn, and who are Rey's parents. I suspect we'll learn more about The Knight of Ren since TLJ touches on Kylo taking a handful of Luke's students after turning. With Snoke out of the way his history is less important to the story.

 

There are more subjective things out there from 'externally connected' LF individuals, but I am not patient enough to search through Twitter, etc. for all examples. I think Andi did respond with a call for peace in March for anything said or miscontrued regarding her past statements, and the infamous Luke 'X' picture from Justin Bolger, etc. etc.

Again this all hearkens back to lost in translation. This is the new world reality of the internet/information wars, and there are likely coordinated attacks on all fronts, so best not to create ammunition on social media. Who do we trust.... either way, the path through this is solidarity in love of SW, and unfortunately LF leaders and company reps need to begin cultivating that publicly, ASAP, to get ahead of 'things' like writers, random staff or former/prospective creators social media commentaries continuing to be perceived as speaking for the company. Not necessarily an apology, but a statement to end all statements about the matter of the fans and the future. I think it can be crafted rather easily, assuming the company is stable enough internally.

What kills me on the inside is that I could probably count on one hand, story items in TLJ that could've been modified resulting in fans receiving the movie as 'okay'/apathy vs rage in many areas we have going. The beginning path out of this is a positive LF statement about the fans, social media silence, and some good interesting news, I don't know what, but something from LF regarding IX, Obi-Wan, etc. - which has been slated for EOM.

I also think smug and dismissive comments, even in this or similar forums, alienate people which only exacerbates the divide. After being duped 2x speculating over TFA and TLJ, I would never believe the character codenamed 'Mara' is a version of Mara Jade, not this time. I said they were trolling us from day 1 that was announced. However, if I went over to speculate in IX threads or even suggested that Keri Russell is Mara, Rey's Mother or Aya Glon, and one of the first, former and lone surviving student of Luke's academy, actively searching for Rey (the last Skywalker) believed dead, I would probably be laughed at, ignored or told to "get over it - she's a nobody." So a fun outlet for me is now kind of closed in my mind because I can't speculate without facts anymore. When people feel like that, they reach for others that feel the same, and perhaps those others share a more extreme view on the matters at hand, which puts us in this present situation. Hell, isn't that the story of the PT.

I don't know where I really stand on the future of the franchise. I don't think it's dead, but I do think it's hurt, and in danger of becoming more niche (anecdotally) - I am sure that is something they want to hear with theme parks coming. I still love SW (currently living in the EU and hope for the future), and have never attacked the creators on their social media, but the TLJ is something I can't watch, nor have interest at present. It's weird, and a first for me in SW. My wife bought the BD for me, after I told her not to, thinking it would pull me out of this low funk. I see it on Netflix, but I just don't click on it. Unfortunately, the TLJ kind of pulls the TFA down too for me because it nullifies it IMO - I honestly don't think I've watched that since TLJ either. I can go on about what I think should have happened, what they could have done, but it's all water under the bridge in truth. Sometimes it's nice to come here and let it fly though. Classifying the HATE THREAD or LOVE THREAD =(echo chamber), it's all one in the same to me, and places for people to commiserate or share common ground when they feel like they can't find it elsewhere. There is still one more movie to go, so there is still a chance for some kind of peace. Fans will implode or come together in 2019. JJ is going to be more gray in the next year for sure.

 

If he had read or watched TFA and realized where the characters are then that would have been a better outcome.

 

I know you didn't reply to me specifically, but @Commander Dameron has a very similar experience/outlook to me. I am in my mid 40's, have grown up with SW all my life. It has been a passion, and it still is. I have a large toy collection in my loft. I have all of the films. I have all the TV shows. I even have copies of The Holiday Special and the ewok movies. I have SW tattoos. I don't think I own a tee shirt that isn't a SW design. I'm not saying that makes me special, I would hazard a guess we're all here pretty much like that.
However, after TLJ the saga also ended for me at RotJ. I don't care for any of the new characters. I have minimal interest in the finale of the ST (I still hold a candle for the final film to really bring it all together). I was very optimistic when Disney took over. I really enjoy the spin offs but their supposed saga films leave a lot to be desired. I've done the marathon and it is so jarring going from RotJ into TFA. And then going into TLJ is (for me) even worse as RJ didn't even have Rey and Luke in the same positions as they were at the end of TFA. The ST is it's own thing. It is a separate story to the other SIX saga films, and that's fine for some but not for me.

Now to address the part that puzzles you. I still come here because I have a glimmer of hope that a point may be raised that'll help me "get" the ST but so far nothing. I come to these forums because I've been in the OT forums and the PT forums for years. I have had all the discussions there are to be had about them. The new films are where the new discussions are (whether I enjoy the films or not).

Regardless of what I think of the ST - I still love STAR WARS and that is why I'm here. I would say that is why we're all here, lovers, indifferents, and haters of the ST.

I hope this doesn't come across as snarky, and I hope I have helped you understand why people like myself are still here in the ST forums. (Just for the record, I and many others couldn't agree less that TLJ is the best SW film of all time).

 

I'm sorry but as true as I was interested in the new characters after TFA, I couldn't care less about any of them after TLJ.

The most mind boggling thing is that LFL had no clue of what they were doing for the ST as a whole and I don't understand that.

 

what is 'most people' ? a lot of people are upset.. a lot of people aren't.
in the 2 years leading up to TLJ there was very little agreement on which way it was going to go in this forum.

before TFA came out, we were split here about what kind of Luke people wanted to see in the new trilogy. Some were saying that they wanted Luke to be an all singing and all dancing uber powerful Jedi that could pull Star Destroyers out of the sky.. and at the other end of the scale there were people saying that Luke should/could be bad or that he should die so that new we could get new characters.

After TFA came out we had a huge split on loads of things.. who Rey's parents were, Kylo's redemption, who Snoke was, whether or not Finn would be FS, ReyLo etc etc.

There was no version of TLJ that could have avoided a huge chunk of our passionate fans being as upset as they are. whatever you do with the above characters i mentioned... a big bunch of upset fans.
for example:- there is a large group that are relatively happy with episodes 7 & 8.. but if Ben Solo dies on the dark side they will be utterly mortified and will believe that the entire saga has been turned into a tragedy. I don't need to say this but there is also a large section that don't want him redeemed.. and basically want him killed or to become more evil. This split.. that will occur once we see Kylo/Ben's story finish; happened when we saw TFA, and there wasn't a thing RJ could do with that.

the split is here.. with us. It was before TFA and i can even tell you the day it occurred... the day they announced that the Original trilogy characters were returning for the new movies. It's just getting worse with each movie.. it has nothing to do with Rian Johnson imo. There wasn't a trilogy anyone could make with the OT characters that wasn't going to result in what we see today.

it's all coming to a fore now.. but it was always going to.

our passion and love for Star Wars has basically made us the collateral damage going forward.. we're being nuked by our own head canon's lol.

 

Not at all! Your reply is good and strong and helpful

Yes, but you are illustrating my point here. You're obviously emotionally invested and care about the ST and where it is heading, eternally hoping it will turn into something that you can enjoy. My point was that posters who claim to have no interesting in the ST and where things are going, makes for pretty bizarre postings, IMHO.

Of course, who am I to question people's motivation for complaining about stuff they're not interested in? ...but still, it puzzles me

 

I would question whether I am emotionally invested and care about the ST. At this point in time I could take it or leave it. I am emotionally invested in and care about Star Wars in general, and I do try to have a positive outlook, so of course I still have hope, however I do not have faith.

You omitted that part of my post my fellow SW aficionado, so I'm not sure if I am illustrating your point... (but I do get where you are coming from )

Peace out dude, work's a b**** and my boss is looming

 

Ah, man, that's a perfect way of putting it Personally, I have so much faith right now that hope is not needed on my part. I just KNOW that I'll love IX and RJ's trilogy, and probably everything Disney/LFL throws at us

Great post, man!

Fair point. I shaved the post for clarity & brevity, but you've got a point there

Hide, man; hide!


PS: Let me just take this opportunity to say that it breaks my heart that TLJ doesn't do for some people what it does for me. Art, of course, is a matter of taste and individual appreciation, but I would've loved it if y'all could share my love for this (IMHO) extraordinary piece of art that RJ gave us. I do have hope, however, and even faith that many of you swell people for whom TLJ doesn't click right now will come, in time, to appreciate it like I do. I hope that not because I need more friends in my camp, but because this love I've got for RJ & TLJ right now is something I would wish for all SW fans to feel.
(Does that even make sense? WARNING! WARNIG! Non-native English speaker trying to say something! ).

PSS: Yeah, I know somemone will post that Padme "you're breaking my heart" meme at me now

 

It's all good my friend, I (and I suspect every other ST "hater" here) will always, ALWAYS, love Star Wars.

And it warms my heart knowing there are other fans that feel the way you do.

No, I'm not gonna post that meme/gif