THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Yet I see it all the time. People going on about Luke being the most powerful Jedi ever and expecting he would have taken on the FO basically all by himself and would have never been tempted by dark side. Said time and again. Luke didnt win in ROTJ because of the Force. He won because of his father finally giving into Love of son.

 

I don't disagree, but I think it's also important to highlight Luke's own possible effect on inspiring to bring the humanity back to Vader as well.

Luke won through compassion, but nearly lost due to his fear of giving into the dark side (which, ironically, nearly did cause him to give in to the darkness in the end).

I can see how some fans could misinterpret Luke as a badass action here (and while he's certainly badass, they're still wrong in that interpretation) but I think some of the haters at least have a more nuanced interpretation.

I know a lot of people take more issue with the Luke/Kylo academy scene. And I get that. But ultimately, it comes down to whether you think these characters are cardboard cutouts taken directly from the end of ROTJ, or if you think they're complex characters that can grow, make mistakes, and have personalities that extend beyond a linear path.

 

That's a tad bit insulting. First of all, there are more than just a "handful" of people who dislike/hate the film. It's not just five angry white guys hanging out i moms basement. Secondly, at least for me, I don't hate TLJ because Luke doesn't show how much of a bad ass he is. I NEVER expected that. He was only a partially trained Jedi at best. He was, for me never up there with Yoda or Mace Windu or even Obi-Wan.

I disliked the way he was portrayed in TLJ because we don't get much of an explanation for how he got to where he is at. All we get is some half baked story about Luke trying to kill his own nephew when he saw the dark side in him. How does that fit with the character of Luke who, in Return of the Jedi, finally figures it out, at the end. The key to destroying the Sith wasn't to be some great warrior (as Yoda said, wars do not make one great). So Luke forgets this lesson? Why? Two sentences, for me, does not explain it. Instead of giving me the load of crap that is Canto Bight, give me something better drawn out and thought out.

If the pro-TLJ people would stop straw-manning those of us who dislike it, they might see that while they don't always agree, the arguments make sense. I don't straw-man the pro people. I get that they like the film. Good for them. I wish I did. I wish more people did. But I don't and they don't. DVD sales, toy sales and the RT scores (plus plenty of anecdotal evidence and the number of youtube channels dedicated to bashing it and LFL) plus the absolute bomb that was Han Solo, all point to I'd guesstimate means about 30% of the fanbase isn't happy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 11, 2018 ---

This could have been avoided. The film was already what, 2hours and 20 some odd minutes? Why not add say 5 minutes and SHOW how Luke changed over the 30 years? Since they purposely avoided discussing Luke in ANY of the books, comics, etc. what did they expect?

The problem for me is also based on the fact that the writer himself didn't have much of a backstory for why Luke was in that place mentally. Mark himself said HE had to comeup with a back ground story to explain it. That statement didn't instill me with a ton of confidence in the writer/director and his ability to pull this off.

 

I mean, clearly some people could've seen value in that, but given what we know about him, Kylo, the Jedi, and the rise of Snoke/FO, I personally don't see it as that hard of a puzzle to solve.

Is this the Luke we expect at the end of ROTJ? No, not really. But given the events, to me it at least now seems like a logical progression.

 

That latest Twitter nonsense is what I mean when I say that they keep throwing fuel on the fire. Except I don't think that person is anyone special, just another someone who wants to put down anyone who disliked TLJ, call them a tiny minority and say "But it made money!!!" Blah, blah, blah.

 

I guess this is where you and I differ. The puzzle isn't hard to solve, but I don't know why he's there. Why is it up to me to fill in the blanks. Obviously the film maker himself doesn't know. If he did then why didn't he tell the actor? Because he doesn't know. That's a problem.

It could be logical. But Luke in ROTJ is at point d and now he's at point y. How'd he get there? Was it logical? I don't know. And apparently no one knows. It's not fully explained in the film, nor via other media forms. Why? Because the writer is too busy developing dead end plot lines and half thought up characters who look like they are refugees from the Hunger Games rather than give us a fully developed and thought out Luke.

 

Yeah, I think that's really what most of this boils down to, of course.

Regarding how he got from "point d" to "point y"- well it's been like 30-35 years. So I get how some sort of montage during that time could catch people up, and maybe they should have done that, but as I said, personally the way events were revealed does that well enough for me.

 

And that's cool. As a vet and someone who hates war in all its forms, the Luke we got spoke to me. I like the war torn and world weary Luke. I never wanted to see "badass" Luke, as I never thought he was "bad ass." I just wanted some exposition catching us up. Especially as I thought Canto Bight was a pile of bantha poo. LOL

I haven't seen you do it, but I've seen plenty call The Last Jedi the greatest Star Wars film ever. That's one thing I can never agree to. A New Hope changed the way films are released, the way they are made, the way they are marketed. It influenced film makers like James Cameron, JJ Abrams, Peter Jackson and tons of others. I don't have a crystal ball, but I doubt the same can be said for TLJ.

Empire Strikes back was tightly written. It moves. It has great characters like Yoda and Lando. It's an amazing follow up. I can see where people like TLJ but to say it is "great" simply strikes me as hyperbole. I loved TFA but I don't call it "great."

 

There is a vast difference. 1st lets be clear. Luke never tried to kill his nephew. He had a fleeting thought of killing his nephew. He never tried. This is also vastly different then the Luke at the end of ROTJ. Luke did not have Anakin take to the dark side under his own watch. Luke brought his father back, he did not allow him to go to the dark side. That is a huge difference. Thought it was perfectly clear he saw in Ben the future and what he would do. What he would do wasnt shown, because then it needs to be shown in the films happening or not happening. So momentarily weakness set in and he thought about ending it right then. He quickly regained his senses and didnt, but it was to late. Ben saw him with the lightsaber on and immediately struck back.

 

So turning on his light saber and standing over his sleeping nephew is what? Not attempting to kill him? I guess it is a matter of semantics.

For me, that scene wasn't good enough to explain it. For you it was. That's cool. I just find the Luke as presented in TLJ to be poorly written. I'm not the only one. Mark Hammil thought it was poorly written and had to come up with his own back story. Again, not exactly the sort of thing that instill me with confidence that RJ know what he was doing.

There were other characters that were poorly written and conceived. Holdo, Rose, Finn. All three were poorly developed. Finn had so much potential and instead he is turned into a caricature and a joke. His arc destroyed by Rose and her "save what you love" saccharine sweet decision.

 

As long as I'm not lumped in with them, I couldn't care less what those "haters" are saying. I understand the end of RotJ.

Mate, I'm a "hater" too, but did you read what that handful of people had written about the end of RotJ? That Luke won because he was superpowered with the Force or some crap like that. So no, as long as you don't totally misrepresent/misunderstand the end of RotJ, it's not insulting at all.

For clarification:
The misreading: Luke Skywalker uses his great warrior skills to defeat Darth Vader. Once he’s proven himself in combat and stands victorious, Luke does the honorable thing by showing mercy and sparing his enemy. Thereby saving himself from corruption and redeeming his father.
What really happened: Luke tries to avoid fighting but gives into anger. As he bests Vader in combat, Luke realizes his great mistake, winning this fight means losing his soul to the Dark Side. The battle itself is corrupting him, understanding this Luke throws away his weapon.
Notice that the misreading (above) reframes Luke as a badass warrior and reframes his refusal to kill Vader as an act of mercy stemming from a position of power. This is significant because Luke beating Vader in combat is explicitly depicted as a moment of weakness NOT strength.

And when you think about it, that little bit of blurb right there explains why Luke would never have considered murdering his nephew in his sleep.

 

Why does that matter? It does not compute for me either way.... not that Luke's action cannot be explained further down the line, which they desperately need to be for me. Knowing what I know of Luke in the OT, and the Luke in the many years of EU books/games I have, it doesn't make sense as the apparent first course of action.

Why not dismiss Ben from the Academy?
Can you honestly tell me, that Luke would not have closed his eyes, and asked the Force and his former 'masters' for guidance?





I don't like my nephew's thoughts and the steps to clear that up as written by a supposed Jedi Master.

Step 1) Load your gun and point it at their head while they sleep.
Step 2) Think for a minute
Step 3) Pull the trigger if you're sure. If you don't, it's okay, I am sure you won't be prosecuted and your reputation will remain solid bro.
Bonus) Try not to wake them

You can come in here and make comments about thinking it was a logical or natural character progression, I don't care, but some people didn't like this interpretation because they never believed he would have reached that point to begin with, and no one I have seen around this forum lately expected (vs liked) Luke to be doing crazy Jedi things, etc. Perhaps developing a meaningful relationship with Rey and the Resistance was too much.

 

I think this is a big point for me, that RJ never did actually write how Luke got to where he is. I would think that would have been a big step to answer the inevitable questions concerning his decisions and behavior in TLJ. I would go as far to say that this point should have superseded a lot of other plot points he did put time into, like Canto Bight, sympathy for Kylo ect...

Now I understand GL never wrote how Vader got to where he was, but then again, look how that turned out lol. We got an Anakin story that is one of the major weak points and issues with the whole of the PT (not only the actor, but the story itself, starting from virgin birth on).

So yeah, I can conceivably imagine a story that would get Luke to where he is in TLJ (however, that in itself would be challenging, which is why I believe RJ didn't write it), but I also feel I needed to get some of that in TLJ. Now anything they come up with will feel forced. I have no issue with subversions, but it should be earned. I think had RJ actually written out a history that makes sense for Luke's decisions, I think his behavior in TLJ would have felt more genuine, even without a montage, because Mark would have had access to that story and been able to sell it better. But even if it felt a bit off, with a story written, he could have picked out one or two of the biggest moments that caused the change in Luke. It never had to be a montage, one or two quick flash backs could have done it. So one for why Kylo hates Luke, then one or two to show how Luke made that decision to walk into his sleeping nephews room, draw and ignite his lightsaber after reading his mind.

It's the writers and directors job to sell this to the fans. I don't feel RJ did, he wanted to be given the benefit of the doubt, without doing the ground work to earn it. That's my opinion anyways. That works in a first movie like ANH, where everyone is a blank slate, but it doesn't work when you're continuing a saga with established characters.

 

Like I said there is a difference. Luke believe he caused his nephew to go to the dark side. It happens right under his nose. He had nothing to do with Anakin going to the dark side. He believes he is negligent with Ben and for a fleeting moment he contemplates ending it immediately. It took a great deal more to get him to be ready to strike Vader before he stopped. It took more then sub-conscious effort to choose to do everything he could to beat Vader. Turning on his lightsaber in TLJ was pure sub-conscious and conscious said no.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 11, 2018 ---

No I absolutely believe Luke would have, but what sets forth the tragedy is that Ben woke as Luke turned off the lightsaber. Not sure the word, but best is a tragic misunderstanding. One second later and Ben is waking up asking Luke "Master Luke what is the matter?" and Luke saying "Nothing to talk about now, we will talk in the morning". Then Luke walks off and asks his former 'masters' for guidance. Thats the tragedy.

Our own history is littered with tragedy like this. Tragedy that may or may not have changed significant events. What if Hitler had not been denied admission to art school?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2018 ---

I think you are 100% right RJ didnt. Luke's backstory into TLJ was written by the story group and JJ and approved by others before RJ took it and told the aftermath. Opening scroll said of TFA said he vanished. Han says student of Luke's turned to the dark side and destroyed academy and Luke blamed himself. Luke didnt go to get something. He ran away. No way if he had to go look for something he doesnt tell the people closest to him. He doesnt rip a part of a map out and hide it away. He tells Leia where he is going. It was all in TFA. TLJ just shows the triggering event that was obvious if you really think about it. Luke lost his nephew to the dark side and went into exile. Just as GL visioned Luke would.

 

But there has to be something more to the story - if RJ and LF or JJ talked about this as a future hidden plot point, I am willing to accept the lack of full disclosure thus far. Leia dropped him off with Luke knowing full well he was struggling, even if she didn't know the extent. The twins never conversed about this? Luke never felt conflict in his sister or Han? A Jedi Master?

Leia: I sense darkness or something in him blah blah.....he has been spending too much time with Snoke.
Luke: Okay, I will do my best and ruminate on this blah blah blah

If the impulsive drawn saber was the only reason/moment, it will not be enough for me personally

 

Leia dropped him off knowing he was struggling? What is source of this? From my understanding Ben was with Luke for a long time before even the academy had started. Only reason for what? For Ben to turn? No he had already gone to dark side. Luke just found out about it saw a vision of suffering. Remember he say Han and Leia suffering and impulsively went off to stop it. This time he held back after momentarily thinking about it, but it wasnt enough because Ben woke up.

 

Oh, I enjoyed it but it's far from my favorite.

But honestly, saying anything is "the best" is a form of hyperbole. I mean, as much as I dislike AotC, if someone said it was their favorite, who would I be to say that they were wrong about their subjective opinion?

 

That's the problem I have with people today in general. Everything is "these best" or "the worst" thing ever. SERIOUSLY????

There is a difference between subjective opinion, for example "I love Attack of the Clones" and saying "Attack of the Clones is the greatest Star Wars film ever." That person isn't saying it's their favorite (although they may mean that). They are saying it is greater, more impactful, than a New Hope. None of the Star Wars films have had the same effect as the original, and none will. That might be my opinion, but it is pretty quantifiable at the same time, don't you think? TLJ isn't changing the way films are made. It's not changing the way they are released. It's not changing the way marketing for films is done. A New Hope did that and more.

Again, I'm not saying you can't like TLJ. I'm not even saying it can't be your favorite. But saying it is the GREATEST film of the Star Wars series? That is ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Currently The Last Jedi is my favorite Star Wars film. There's only 10 films. 2 of them aren't very good. 5 are really good and there are three that are kind of meh. It's not like there's ton of films. Hyperbole to me is saying these films are the greatest/worst films of all time.

 

Perhaps I can't state Ben knew himself he was being targeted or in turmoil, but Leia knew something was off. That is a kind of truth bomb you drop on your brother if you actually like him. I believe she senses darkness in her womb in Aftermath Life Debt, but I didn't read that one, because I hated the way the first one was written.

From TFA novel:

"He knew our child would be strong with the Force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.”

“You knew this from the beginning? Why didn’t you tell me?”

She sighed. “Many reasons. I was hoping that I was wrong, that it wasn’t true. I hoped I could sway him, turn him away from the dark side, without having to involve you.” A small smile appeared. “You had— you have— wonderful qualities, Han, but patience and understanding were never among them. I was afraid that your reactions would only drive him farther to the dark side. I thought I could shield him from Snoke’s influence and you from what was happening.”

Her voice dropped. “It’s clear now that I was wrong. Whether your involvement would have made a difference, we’ll never know.”

He had trouble believing what he was hearing. “So Snoke was watching our son.”

“Always,” she told him. “From the shadows, in the beginning, even before I realized what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son toward the dark side. But nothing’s impossible, Han. Not even now, at this late time. I have this feeling that if anyone can save him— it’s you.”


Sorry, when I say reason/moment = the reason I got the Luke Skywalker I did, the impulsive move.