THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Are you kidding? We're Star Wars fans. It's part of the game.

 

Because some people, like myself, who are invested in an overall world such as Star Wars sometimes want to discuss our disenchantment with parts of that world. I like the stand along movies a lot, love the original series and like the prequels. So I have an interest in some of the films, just not the recent trilogy.

If you look at my post history, you'll note that I haven't been on this board in a very long time (prior to two posts a few days ago) AND that those two recent posts were about my disappointment with the sequel trilogy after TLJ. I certainly haven't wasted much time discussing the recent movies. I simply tried to rewatch TLJ a few days ago, realized that it came off worse to me after half a second watching, and came to the boards here to see if others were similarly disenchanted and posted twice. That's it. I haven't complained nonstop, I'm not heartbroken or even disgusted. I simply posted my thoughts in a thread where that topic is relevant. And, frankly...and I don't mean this as snark either...I don't understand why someone who loves the sequel trilogy and thinks TLJ is in this thread or even interested in my opinions. That's utterly bizare to me.

I'm still undecided if I'll see the final installment in the theater. No, I'm not emotionally invested in the current characters, but I understand (that despite my saying the story ends at ROTJ for me) that these films are canon...and since I 1) am a Star Wars universe fan, and 2) have already invested several hours watching the first two movies, a part of me would feel like seeing how JJ will tie it all together (the fact that Lando will be in the final installment makes it more likely that I'll go see it a week or so after the it comes out). But, no, I won't be on these boards posting much if at all (only came back to answer this ).

 

Join the club, I've been trying to figure this out for MONTHS! Keep posting though, us fellow "haters" will be around to back you up.

 

This! It's a thread for those of us that dislike the sorry excuse of a film put out by Johnson. Post away brother. I'm with you. I'm not sure why people come in here to post in the thread for "haters" when they think TLJ is the best thing since sliced cheese. And then attack those of us that don't like it.

I COULD have been invested in the characters. I liked, and still like Kylo Ren. I do like the fact that, at least as of now, it appears he is irredeemable. I liked Rey in TFA. I liked Finn in TFA. But TLJ ruined them for me. I could have liked Rose, and she been a well written and developed character, instead of a voice for the director to lecture people about his politics. Heck, I could have liked Holdo, had she been interested and had they actually had her dressed like an Admiral instead of a refugee from the Hunger Games.

What really gets me is when people try and make this film out to be better than IV. I myself like V a little bit more than IV, but I am in no way of the illusion that it had the cultural and cinematic impact of IV. I'm sure someone will come in and say this isn't objectively provable. Well, I think it is. A New Hope is in the Library of Congress as being a culturally significant piece of cinema. The music, the awards (oh I know, RJ got a "participation" award a few weeks ago so that's supposed to compare), the impact of film making, etc... RJ will be lucky if LFL sticks with him and his trilogy. Personally I wouldn't let him near another Star Wars film, especially since he supposedly wants to change the way the force works. He does that and I'm out.

 

This "us against them approach" is bad for the fandom as far as I'm concerned.

 

Right, so you do have an overall interest after all. Well, then it is no wonder you come here posting about it I must have misunderstood. My bad.

 

I guess the primary question for me in the audience is: COULD he have ever arrived at this point based on what we know?

A look into the "shoulds" of screenwriting makes me feel to under-qualified to analyze these!
Those most informed about these things seems to be happy which must count for something.

It's certainly interesting to look at past events/trends and extrapolate them forward, I'm just not so sure that's how I want characters to be developed.
Generally speaking, if there is more drama in the plausible rather than the likely I want the writer to go with the plausible (as long as it makes sense of course).

At present my secondaries questions after the "could it" are just:
Did it make sense?
Did it make for a good story?

But I'm just a simple man trying to make my way through a movie.

That's pretty much how I read the situation in TLJ.

Luke had already seen darkness in Ben, sensed it building, saw it multiple times in training.
He's obviously let a lot slide up until deciding to investigate further - maybe too much.
But this would seem to indicate patience, mellowness, and penchant for seeing the good in people.

As we see in the next moment he's obviously still capable of being impulsive, fearful, and seeing the darkness too!

 

I don't disagree with you, but that's what it seems to turn into in this thread frequently. However, I don't think those of us who disliked TLJ come into this thread to look for trouble and arguments, only to vent and talk about our disappointment.

 

Fair point.
Anyone wanting to vent only may want to ignore me.
I mainly come here to learn and discuss and often can't keep my mouth shut!

 

No, you're good. Coming in to learn and discuss is one thing, coming into antagonize and pick fights is another. When I see a fairly new poster say that they won't post in here much because they got attacked for posting about disliking the movie in the thread for those who disliked the movie, I feel the need to throw a little support their way.

I haven't put anyone on ignore, even those I've gone a few rounds with in this thread. I've actually found myself agreeing with them on other threads and topics outside of this one.

 

Why can't people who like the film discuss it reasonably with those who don't like it? That's what these forums are for, right? Shouldn't we be allowed to discuss things honestly? This is especially true when there are so many outright fabrications casually attributed to Lucasfilm and the film itself.



Obvious, some don't want to discuss this reasonable and these threads weren't designed to be safe spaces. Also, even as someone who loves The Last Jedi there are some criticisms of the film worth exploring. Anything written by @Moral Hazard is worth reading. So if I have to absorb some negative ratings and personal attacks discussing Star Wars so be it.

 

And what gets me is there are PLENTY of strong female characters in Star Wars. Leia, Ahsoka, Padme, Mon Monthma, need I go on? It's almost as if KK and RJ don't even know the franchise. Heck, just since KK took over you have Hera, Sabine, and Ahsoka who featured in the fantastic Rebels series. Doesn't she pay attention to the things her company is creating? How about the so called Story Group? Are they not aware?

I ignored the SJW agenda. Argued it didn't exist. I'm with you now. Heck, the photo of KK wearing a shirt that says "The Force is Female" shows her distinct lack of understanding of wht the force is. It's not male, it's not female. It's Male and Female. It's the Dark and the Light, the Yin and the Yang.

Personally I've argued for years that Hollywood needs to do a better job casting minorities in lead positions, especially Asian actors. I loved Donny Yen in Rogue One. I would have loved Kelly Marie Tran's character in TLJ had there been something lovable about her. She's not. She's holier than thou at best. At worst she's just a tag along who doesn't really do much except ride a weird looking horse (the effects on that were really bad) through a poorly conceived city.

And don't get me started on the other problems with Canto Bight. "Master Code Breaker"... Seriously? That's the title? How did that get into the script? Again, too often this script felt like it was version 1.0 or 2.0.

 

Most of us, quite honestly, aren't coming here to be won over. It's pretty rare for that to happen, and certainly not when one is participating in a public forum where things can sometimes get heated, especially since we can't actually see the other person.

The only reason I myself started to change my mind on this film was because I was TALKING to people I actually know and respect. People both older and younger, which made me wonder "Why does "X" and "Y" and "Z" really hate TLJ???" What tends to happen is we dig in our heels, and insist that we are right, and that goes for me just as much as anyone.

 

So I have made the point several times (in another thread) that Finn's arc wasn't proscribed by events in TFA, it was a choice, as were most of the story points. So I can't now reverse myself and say it was impossible that Luke COULD have ever arrived at this particular point or any other. For anything to happen in a SW movie someone need merely imagine it and write it. The question is not so much possibility but probability. The less likely a development is (if it's a hard turn from the established character profile) the more the required investment in writing in making it plausible and probable (which I would argue did not happen here).

Questions that you pose such as:
Did it make sense?
Did it make for a good story?

are functions of the quality of the writing. It absolutely can be done, but it requires investment, and frankly I think you have to care as much about the audience as you do the art they are consuming (and I would again argue that here it didn't happen). Rian made a SW that he liked and that he wanted to see and it has/had consequences.

It's not how I read the situation in TLJ. In fact, the clandestine visit to the hut suggests to me that Luke wasn't overlooking the darkness in Ben in favor of his light, he wasn't seeing the darkness. He went on a recon mission and the moment he ignites that blade he is in 180 degree contradiction with the Luke of ROTJ. I don't think one can credibly argue that believing in the goodness of others is a core value, that in some respect defines who you are, and then contemplate the murder of your nephew (even for the briefest of moments).

 

Good god this movie was horrible. Luke was ruined. Finn and Rose just terrible. Rey was reduced to a crying damsel.

 

Amen brotha!! Can I get a a hallelujah!!

 

Good movies don't need defending and defense forces. There is no Rogue One or Black Panther or Wonder Woman defense pieces and defense forces all this time later. Oh of course I see LFL employees on twitter are still at it 200 days after the movie came out. This is a tacit admission whether they realize it or not that they screwed up/made a divisive movie.

 

I watched one of the mini documentaries on the Clone Wars and they were talking about the fairytale elements they put into that episode and if you study Lucas you know that he's interested in Star Wars as a fairytale, as myth, a family saga, sure there are political elements in there but generally he's trying to tell a story that is universal that has roots in ancient human story telling traditions and for me that is why Star Wars is so rich, that's what gives it a heart. Lucas is a Romantic, he takes an obvious delight in world building and visuals and wants to excite a sense of wonder.
I don't see that at all in the Sequel Trilogy, they seem to be making action movies and make sure they tick the diversity boxes while ignoring the heart of what Star Wars has been.

 

I totally agree Magnar. They seem to be extremely defensive Why? Because they screwed the pooch on this one. "Subverting expectations" is all well and good, but when you appear to be doing it simply to be controversial or because you can, then you are probably going to get a backlash. I don't see why they don't take the Ron Howard or Colin T. approach. Listen to the fans. Thank them for the fact they care so much about the IP and move on. Actually I do know why: they screwed up and can't take the criticism.

It kills me that there isn't a plan. No plan. Nothing. JJ se the new trilogy, reboots the franchise, and then RJ is allowed to essentially reboot the reboot. And you hit the nail on the head. They are more concerned with checking boxes than making a good trilogy. Cast diversity: check. Big explosions: check. Lightsaber here or there? Check. Throw in a mom joke here or there and we are good to go. Too bad the editing, writing, character development and world building are garbage. And who cares if it changes the rules developed in other films? Complain about that and you are just a nitpicking fanboy freak who doesn't understand the geniusness of the film. Complain about the poor writing and crappy characters, you are just a misogynistic sexist jerk who doesn't understand the geniusness of the film.

Cash grab is exactly what this is. Mom jokes, milking space cow boobies, changing the way hyperspace works, on and on. Now he wants to bring his awesome writing skills and understanding of the IP to a new trilogy and change the way the force works? No thanks. I'll not watch that crap. I'm sure I'm not the only one.