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SPOILER THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    156 vote(s)
    56.1%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    124 vote(s)
    44.6%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    167 vote(s)
    60.1%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    143 vote(s)
    51.4%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    101 vote(s)
    36.3%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    96 vote(s)
    34.5%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    139 vote(s)
    50.0%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    183 vote(s)
    65.8%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    121 vote(s)
    43.5%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    185 vote(s)
    66.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Movies are cash grabs by the way. If A New Hope wasn't successful, you wouldn't have seen a sequel.:rolleyes: Why is cast diversity a bad thing? It's a galaxy. If it was all straight, white dudes- that's not a galaxy as far as I'm concerned.
     
    #4461 Andrew Waples, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:53 PM
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 1:03 PM
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  2. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Force Sensitive

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    I wasn't really on board for sad Luke, but based on The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi and Pablo Hidalgo this was the direction George Lucas was taking this trilogy if he was able to do it himself. The arc with Luke appears to have been pushed to the 2nd film, but if Lucas himself thought Luke could go in this direction I'm not sure why we can't either. On the flip side, did the filmmakers explain why Luke did this? We know he's fled the scene in TFA and that the catalyst for that change was the fall of Ben Solo.

    In The Last Jedi Luke talks very specifically about what happened and why he feels the way he does. Could Luke have ever arrived at that point? Lucas thought so.
     
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  3. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    This line of criticism is 100% legit, and they all have the same stock response: "It is a movie about space wizards..!!"

    What they don't understand is that just because you have elements of fantasy in a story - which is perfectly fine - does not mean you can just do anything and everything and expect the audience to shrug their shoulders and say "hey, it's a movie about space wizards so anything goes...."
     
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  4. Buckeye94

    Buckeye94 Rebel General

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    You're exactly right. If there was truly no backlash or it was just a tiny sliver of the fanbase upset, then there wouldn't all this social media activity and we wouldn't see constant defense pieces as you put it articles all over the media. They know the truth of the situation, whether they admit it or not.
     
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  5. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    I love Star Wars, although, I have yet to see Solo, TLJ is the only film in the franchise that I positively dislike. It's a horribly written film, horrible change in characters characteristic, ridiculous dumb endings, worst antagonist ever, I could go on but won't. Star Wars is still in my heart I want only for the best but this film is a stain and one which won't wash out. I am so disappointed and some what repulsed by the whole project. My fingers are crossed for IX but seriously the only tiny interest that holds me, does Rey have a new sabre and what colour is hew? I hope the Skywalker sabre is smashed because I get tired with the ownership, Aryan blood line issues because its toxic, we need to move on.
     
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  6. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Okay Andrew, I'll say it again, even though I think it's been said a million times on here, buthere we go again. There is NOTHING wrong with diversity. Where did I say diversity was a bad thing? Can you quote me having said that? No. What I said is that when you are MOST concerned with diversity OVER story, then there is a problem. Why? Because if your goal is to make a DIVERSE film, instead of a good film, then once you've cast people you feel you are done.

    Instead of being concerned with casting Kelly Marie Tran and John Boyega, etc... and simply counting how many females and males, the first concern should have been to write a good story. One that makes sense. One that doesn't break the rules of the universe in which it is set. Instead, Johnson showed he doesn't know much about Star Wars, and apparently couldn't be bothered with it. Instead of writing well developed characters, he was simply concerned with fulfilling some sort of quota.

    Kelly Marie Tran and John Boyega, as far as I ca tell, are wonderful actors. I feel sorry for them that their characters were so poorly written. I guess I simply think they DESERVER and are worthy of portraying far better characters than what they were given. Don't you?

    As I said earlier, too often people, and I named myself amongst this group, come in here simply wanting to fight. You didn't come in here wanting clarification on what someone thought about the film. You were looking for a fight. Taking one line or so out of that post and then went after it. Did you think that post was going to change my mind?

    As for every film being a cash grab. EVERY SINGLE FILM is a cash grab???? Seriously? Okay. I disagree but there you go. A New Hope was not an attempt to simply make money for the sake of making money. Cash grab also insinuates that they are just slapping a name on something and feeling the is good enough. For example, you make a piece of garbage of a film that is not true to anything that went before it and simply slap the name "Star Wars Episode VIII" on it. That is a cash grab.

    Exactly. You can't just let them do anything they want. Hey, let's have Holdo sacrifice herself by jumping to hyperspace and blowing up a ton of ships. That's not going to change ANYTHING that came before, right???

    Even the ending of the film is crap... Why was every one happy? They just had their butts kicked, the resistance is now confined to what, 12 people? But hey, let's all laught and look like we are happy. Perhaps they were happy cause they wouldn't have to work with Rian Johnson and his god awful script anymore?

    I guess I'm a scum bag for expecting good writing and editing in a film series I've loved since 1977. But at least he had a diverse cast!!!
     
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  7. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    You never heard of the line/phrase, "I was just happy (lucky) to be alive." That's why they were "happy" they wern't "happy" because they lost. When most people use the word "checklist" they usually use it in a bad sense.
     
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  8. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I don't think diversity is a bad thing or a problem, but I absolutely agree that representation doesn't supersede a well written story. I don't think the diversity aspect was a Rian Johnson problem, Rey, Finn, and Poe were already established, Johnson was going to have to write for a woman, a Latino (or Latinx if that's your thing) and a supposed deuteragonist black male. If you want to pin Holdo and Rose on him, I guess be my guest, but I'm not certain he called all the shots on the whole diversity thing. Holdo and Rose don't bother me anymore than Mon Montha should bother someone, women exist in the galaxy. What was trash was the story. There are so few aspects of the movie that I enjoyed, the battle of D'Qar was good (minus the new Hux and Poe characterizations). And oh yeah the throne room battle was good too, I don't think any one would argue against that. Everything else was just so... bad. As much as I was excited to see a black male lead in Star Wars his story has been entirely underwhelming. The only one worst than Finn is Phasma... jeez what a waste.


    You have to live within the rules and parameters you set -OR- at least explain why the boundaries have expanded; especially in a franchise that's been established over a series of movies. You can't just hand wave and say "The Force", I'm sorry that's just not good story telling. I'm all for diversity but you HAVE to write a good story. Otherwise your diversity is just tokenism.
     
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  9. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I don't have a problem with Grumpy Luke, or whatever we want to call him. I just disagree that it was "well done" or the way it was done. I think more explanation was needed to connect the dots so to speak. The little bit of explanation that was offered was, for me, not enough. I caught myself arguing why it was good, but most of what I said wasn't present in the film.

    Yeah, I have no problem with cast diversity. I think, for example, Hollywood needs to do a better job of casting Asian actors/actresses in leading roles. I love Michelle Yeouh, for example and numerous others. I just think the character of Rose Tico was poorly written. In other words, the story, for me, should be the first thing I'm worried about.

    I completely agree with you on Finn. I can't understand why I'm supposed to like him. They turned him into a complete idiot in VIII, at least in my opinion. I'm sure someone will disagree with me on this and that's cool. I just think he was wasted. Boyega is a good actor, and is deserving of having a much better character than what he was given in VIII.

    I never said having women was the problem. It is the story. The story is garbage, in my opinion. And, as you note, the inability of the writer to live within the rules and paramters of the universe is problematic at best.
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel Official

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    Do you suppose there's any way you can provide examples of which rules were broken or parameters that were breached? That would be very helpful for me in order to understand this perspective better. Thanks :)
     
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  11. bkb

    bkb Rebel Trooper

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    I don't understand this.

    For me Rey, Finn and Poe are written without gender or race.
     
    #4471 bkb, Jul 13, 2018 at 11:00 PM
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 11:22 PM
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  12. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    If only that were the case. Finn has way too much in common with African Americans. He doesn't know where he comes from. He is being named by others, and his actions only helps others. It doesn't help him in his personal life at all. Finn gains nothing being with the Resistance. If anything he loses the same things he had when he was with the FO. His identity and his point of view.

    Poe being chastised by Holdo was unnecessary. No woman has been chastised the way the men have, and 3 men were chastised by women in this movie. I find it hard to believe it was an accident. Notice there is no Han Solo type of man in this movie to tell these women to kiss his ass.
    That's why Han is a favorite. He didn't cater to gender. Either you were useful or you were gone.

    Rey's character was written in TLJ to be a woman. Do you think Rian would have written scenes where two men are attempting to touch hands around a camp fire?

    Too much of this trilogy reflects western values. Every character's ethnicity was recognized, and unfortunately written that way.
     
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  13. HarryShoulders

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    While it isn't a film masterpiece, I really love the movie Dragonheart, and after recently watching it, I wish Luke had been similar to the character Bowen.

    Bowen trained the young Prince. He seemed to kind of always know the Prince was evil, but continued to push the ideas of the old code until he failed. More than the creeper in the hut, I envisioned Luke doubling down on the code in a stubborn fashion as Bowen does. When the Prince goes full evil, Bowen kind of walks away, and becomes kind of an eccentric, funny, grump discarding the old ways - and yet he doesn't kill him :confused:. Once his spirit returns in the scene below, he even helps to train the small band of peasants (resistance) fighting the Prince (King). I think Luke doing something like this to make a connection to the resistance would have made his death more meaningful to me.

    I just love this scene below where Bowen recites the old code, and reaffirms his beliefs to return. I don't think they are called Jedi Knights for giggles......could you imagine if we got something more in line for Luke?


    A Knight is Sworn to Valor!
    His Heart Knows only Virtue!
    His Blade Defends The Helpless!
    His Might Upholds The Weak!
    His Word Speaks Only Truth!
    His Wrath Undoes The Wicked!



     
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  14. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    In the lead up to E7, I was praying they would cast Zhang Ziyi, who starred alongside Yeoh in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and has been in numerous of the modern martial arts movies such as Hero and House of Flying Daggers (one of my all time faves).

    She would have made such an incredible Jedi - and nobody would be talking about her nationality/ethnicity.
     
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  15. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    Written without gender? So if Finn had the force and not Rey we would still have had hand sex.

    Sure :rolleyes:
     
  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    They didn't turn him into an idiot in TLJ (IMO) they acted as though his canon development in TFA didn't exist and had him repeat it. The only difference is that instead of drawing from his own moral compass, his decisions are guided by Rose's life experience (a life he hasn't lived); Rian essentially makes Rose Finn's conscience (a point which no one can debate or has refuted).

    Luke is loyal and believes in the good in people. This is established through out the OT. If you want to extinguish this in order to tell a story about a broken hero (that absolutely no hard core fan asked for) it deserves some exposition. Luke isn't just acting out of character, he is doing something that would be out of character for a Master Jedi. You never once saw Yoda, Obi Wan, or Qui Gon consider killing someone (even for the briefest of moments) for what they "might do".

    FS people fighting with LS receive extensive training in said combat. If you want to create a character that doesn't require training, the onus is on you to provide some connective tissue to make the execption plausible and probable.

    Force Ghost don't physically interact with the world. If you'd like to expand on how those who have died can interact with the real world, it would be nice if someone bothered to offer even the most meager of voice tracked explanations.

    The Holdo Hyperspace attack didn't bother me as much as it did others, but I think they have a valid point in asking if this was a valid approach, why it had never been done before. I think there is a physics answer as to why but the problem of course is that normal physics doesn't apply in SW, and more importantly there IS no answer in the movie.

    I don't understand this. Rey is absolutely written with gender, KK was practically gushing over it (re: "Fierce Independent Women). That all said I'm not sure how this germane to the point I made to which you responded. Rian wasn't necessarily in charge of all casting. Rey, Poe, and Finn were established characters before he had anything to do with it. How you feel Rian wrote them is irrelevant to the fact that (if you had a problem with diversity) Rian didn't have much to do with it since most of the main characters were established before he wrote anything.
     
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  17. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Force Sensitive

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    Force ghost Obi-Wan sat on a log.
    When did Luke received extensive LS training before facing Vader?
    Has it never been done before? I thought the ramming of the two Star Destroyers was pretty cool in Rogue One. Did I have to see that before for it to work?
     
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  18. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Perhaps calling Finn of TLJ an idiot is a bit harsh. I'm just thinking how he walks around half naked at the start. I don't mind having Rose be his conscious, but the problem that I have with it is that by her own words she's not exactly a fountain of experience. I think she says something about working around pipes all day??? I took it as a way of saying she's kind of naive and then suddenly she's a fountain of knowledge and wisdom? I really didn't like that they essentially threw out his development from TFA. In many ways I felt like this was a reboot of the reboot.

    I think you hit on the major problem I have with most of the film when you mention Luke. The Luke we are presented with deserved some explanation/exposition.

    As for Holdo.... that is changing the "rules" and that is what I didn't like. Now in the book they explain that she shut off the fail safes, etc... but like you point out, "why has this never been done before????"
     
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  19. ZDTemplar

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    Did he, though?[​IMG]
     
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  20. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    If it has been done before then why not develop drone ships and just do it all the time? There is a big difference between what they did in Rogue One with the ramming of the Star Destroyer, and what was done in TLJ.

    Personally, I don't like the Holdo maneuver nor do I like the tracking through hyperspace or the fact that they can communicate now while in hyperspace. When I ran D&D campaigns I was always aware of the rules of the universe and I think they should be as well. The book did a better job of explaining the fact that she had to turn off the failsafes and override the systems to get the ship to do it. I just think it simply opens a can of worms. And what was the pay off? A beautiful scene? I admit it was cool as heck. Just not sure it was worth it.

    As for force ghosts... There is HUGE difference between sitting on a log and calling down lighting to destroy something. I don't have too much of a problem with it, but I do think, again, it could be a problem down the road. Am I being nit-picky? Perhaps I am.
     
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