THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

This old chestnut.

FWIW I completely agree with this sentiment that films shouldn't require speculative head-canon and excessive assumption in order to follow the plot.

Surely this is a point every reasonable person can agree on regardless of their feelings about TLJ.

What's funny about that quote above is that it was a reply to my posts specifically calling out subjective assumptions either outside the film or clearly addressed in the film.

Spoiler: Assumptions outside information in the film...

For all these claims of never making assumptions outside the film...

...assumptions outside or contradicting information in the film was exactly what I was taking issue with in the posts.

Assumptions like these ↓

Of course there's nothing wrong with speculation and assumption - it's an important part of some fan's escapism/exploration.

It's two posters criticizing each other for doing the same thing that's kinda comical.
The whole conversation could be summarized as:

1. PosterA makes a subjective assumption.
2. PosterB calls out subjective assumption and demonstrates a contrary subjective alternative.
3. PosterA reads contrary alternative and criticizes it by saying it's a subjective assumption.

Anyway, the fact that people with differing thoughts about TLJ criticize speculation designed to either make the film work or in order to see it not working must mean something.

What, I have no idea.
If nothing else, that we care?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 27, 2018 ---

I'm curious about what kind of speculation people utilized to try and make TLJ work for them.
Is it stuff related to what Luke may have seen in Kylo's head or Snoke's involvement with Ben or Luke etc?

 

Hmmmmm

1. I think the items that you highlighted in spoiler caps are opinions not assumptions. They can still be critiqued on the basis of substance (i.e. is the opinion supported by actual facts or observable events) but I don't think they can be critiqued as assumptions. That might seem like "hair splitting" (i.e. who cares if you call it an assumption or an opinion) but ultimately I think it matters, because the basis of the critique also establishes it's substance/credibility. Stated alternatively, a badly supported opinion is rarely undermined by a badly constructed critique... at least not in my experience.

2. Finding meaning in things that are not expounded upon in a movie (IMO) is a harmless exercise. If you feel you need to do it in order for the movie to coherence and connectivity, there is a problem somewhere. TLJ is complicated by the fact that it is not merely a movie, but an installment in an anthology. It has to honor what came before it or at least credibly offer explanations or allusions to changes. Example, maybe they don't have time to explain every new change in TLJ but they can allude that answers exist and that they will be provided in future stories. When people see things NOT working, I tend to believe that's more the fault of the franchise than the fans. The fans "want" it to work.

3. I used physics speculation and to avoid getting caught in the "The Holdo Maneuver is bogus" debate. I'm also using the "Force Download" to help bridge the "Rey doesn't need any training" gap for right now. I refuse to head canon on behalf of the franchise, the curdling of Luke Skywalker from loyal compassionate hero to old, beaten, defeatist that Rian Johnson envisioned.

On an aside: I think it was clear what many SW fans wanted to see with Luke's return and Rian made it clear he wasn't interested in what they wanted as much as he was interested in telling the story he wanted. Why is there shock that people don't like this film? And how does anyone who has any knowledge of what their fans are looking for, see TLJ and say, "yes, give this man a trilogy"? I mean, if you do it on the basis of the visuals, then maybe I understand, but when you see that story and how it postures characters that you know people have followed and loved for decades - how do you not see that TLJ would be a disaster? There weren't complaints about how Han and Leia were portrayed in TFA comparable to the push back from Luke in TLJ and there is one major reason why: they didn't try to change Leia and Han to fit a particular director's preferred movie. They had grown some sure. But Han was still Han at his core. Leia was still Leia at her core. Luke was NOT still Luke at his core, he seemed like a parody or a distorted memory; and surprise surprise people didn't like it.

KK is still 3 out of 4 (people liked TFA, R1, and Solo was a good movie despite box office numbers), but I question her judgement if she saw TLJ and didn't see the backlash coming. IMO You don't know your customers/fans if you didn't see it coming and moreover thought that the guy that wrote this should be given 3 more movies to alienate fans.

 

which fans are you talking about? the one's who loved it, or the ones that didn't?

'their fans' were completely split on what they 'wanted' way before TLJ came out. TLJ didn't split us.. TLJ was the tipping point because it had Luke in it.
one example of many..go back and look at the infamous Is Rey the daughter of Luke Skywalker thread. 600 odd pages and the voting was completely split..

look through the pages.. you will find posters saying that they will be done with it all if Rey isn't a Skywalker, and other posters saying the opposite.
as you will see - i wanted her to be Luke's daughter.. i wanted Luke to have a family because family was so important to him.

then there are the 'is Snoke DP threads'.. we all disagreed about that. will/should Finn be force sensitive.. disagreed.

we have all been disagreeing about how the ST and the OT characters should go since we knew about the ST.

i must sound like a broken record, but in my opinion there is no movie that would have avoided the upset and disagreements we have seen since December.
a different movie may have meant that different fans were happy/upset, but we would essentially be in the same place.

I also will say again that i don't believe that RJ had hardly any 'wriggle' room with Luke whatsoever. JJ was pulled into the ST as director when KK famously asked him "who is Luke Skywalker". i firmly believe that JJ and Kasdan mapped out the entire trilogy and that it was approved by KK. that's just my opinion though

how many fans are annoyed with RJ because of the flashback showing Luke drawing his saber above Ben? and how many of the same fans are annoyed with RJ because Luke was a crazy hermit uninterested in saving his nephew or the Galaxy?
from TFA:

that's from JJ & Kasdan's script.. he felt responsible and walked away from everything.

knowing that, and that he had been missing for years while the FO and Ben/Snoke terrorized the Galaxy.. what else could possibly come next?
RJ made a scene that explained why Luke felt responsible and made it bad enough to explain why he could possibly walk away. We then saw a Luke that had been alone for a very long time - and had become stuck in a routine that kept him alive there.. and no more. He knew when he walked away that the Galaxy would be in utter peril.. because he knew what Ben would become and he would have known that Snoke was out there (i assume that as Leia blamed Snoke for his turning).. so why would he want to return to the action when a stranger holds out a light saber in front of him and says

he already knew that everything was gonna turn to poop when he walked away (which was decided by JJ and Kasdan)... so of course he was going to say no to Rey because nothing had changed since he walked away. Rey pulled him in bit by bit until he reconnected with the force.. and Yoda gave him a pep talk and he pulled himself back up like all heroes do.


it's 96 degrees here and i may turn into this guy soon..

so forgive me if any of the above sounds argumentative or provocative in any way - it did not mean to.

 

I was going to go into proper detail about what @Moral Hazard quoted from me, but @Rayjefury pretty much nailed everything I was goin to say with this:

^Pretty much this. Most of my qualms with TLJ are purely personal, or have to do with a plethora of issues that stem from poor/scarce information being communicated from the plot to the audience. I don't have any issue with people categorizing my issues as mere opinions because, quite frankly, that's what of they are 90% of the time. I won't contest that in the slightest. What I do take issue with is people attempting to refute my opinions or label them as misinformed by providing information that exists nowhere in the actual film. I'm sorry, but I won't be told my opinion is misguided or perceiving the film in any way based on another fan's raw speculation and head-canon.

And more importantly, I feel this battle of assumptions showcases a far bigger issue in regards to TLJ and the ST at large: a lack of sufficient information provided by the story. Think about it: if the movies had provided the necessary information, would we even be having this clash of speculation and assumption? Would we be questioning the motives of characters, the consistency of lore, or the emotional weight of the story if the film had done its job and conveyed that information properly?

I know I've used this example already, but there wasn't a cascade of head-scratching or speculation by anyone coming back from seeing Avengers: Infinity War. People weren't debating the motives or drive of characters, the consistency of their actions with past films, or the occurrence of events off-screen to justify actions on-screen. The film provided ALL of the necessary information needed to communicate the drama and weight of the story.

The fact that fans in favor or against TLJ have to debate the actual occurence of events within and surrounding TLJ, over seven months from release, should be a good indicator of how effectively the script communicated vital information to the audience.

 

Return With the Elixir

"The return is also the place for poetic justice. The villain’s sentence should directly relate to his sins and the hero’s reward be proportionate to the sacrifice offered."





Reylo and Kylo redeemed bucks the myth folks.


What will Rey's reward be if not family? "I know all about waiting. For my family. They'll be back. One day." Oh crazy Rey, shut up! - you know they are dead just over those sand dunes.

What was Luke's elixir if his story has concluded in TLJ? Love? If Luke's was 'love' then Rey has to be related. Luke: I can't be what she needs me to be!
Han, Leia and Luke all dead - it cannot be for Kylo.

How was Luke a myth to deconstruct in SW universe anyway? - he was physically in the world doing whatever until very recently. I have read the Legends of Luke, which frankly was fine, but did nothing to promote any well known fantastical myth grown in the timeframe we have been given. In ~30 years time would you really become a myth if you were only missing for a decade or less?

SW is a modern myth. TLJ is equivalent to the nitty gritty story, albeit a poor one, of the details behind the myth, but then wants to be a mythic story with the ending. It will go perfectly on my shelf next to behind the Greek myths, and that story of how Perseus sat on a rock, farted and sulked before he fought a big snake...or I could skip that one and just read Perseus and the Gorgon.

I will be laughing so hard if Rey isn't a nobody. Whether by design or JJ walking things back, it will be funny to see the narrative destroyed. Likewise, it will be depressing if they go through with the nobody, but will insure that I full bore partition the ST out of my version of SW.

 

There's enough long term SW fans who are currently upset about the current direction of the ST, Reylo and Kylo's magic redemption would be the ultimate slap in the face for long time fans. The angry, manipulative, homicidal maniac who one upped Vader by killing his own blood, suddenly deciding to be a good guy and then skipping off into the sunset with the female hero would be the final middle finger to OT fans. Frankly, I think that scenario of our patricidal villain turning into a Disney prince is a fantasy that will only continue to exist in fanfics. I will also be laughing for weeks if Rey turns out to NOT be a nobody. I have no hopes for this, because I refuse to get my hopes up anymore for the ST, but that turn of events and the reactions from some here would be hysterically funny.

 

You're right, I am not willing to put my stock in anything for certain after the last two movies, but I have my requirements none the less. I also have my problems with TLJ, but I am willing to allow IX to re-contextualize the movie, particularly the dynamic between Luke and Rey. Part of 'what is Star Wars' thematically, is family/legacy - the Skywalkers. To discard that now seems odd, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the IP, but nothing's shocking anymore. Why people are so adamantly against that is beyond me.

I may be giving too much credit to the creators of the ST, but visually and thematically Luke and Rey's journey are mirrored in so many ways - it could be they are just ripping it off. The ending of TLJ to me, if I accept that movie for now, is Luke saving what he loves. Watch when Luke says "I will not be the last Jedi", and it cuts from the watery eyed face of Luke to Rey's. Just as Vader initially refused to help his son when asked, he eventually saves what he loves. Luke could be doing the same by refusing to go with Rey and later insuring her safety/escape. A parent dying to save their child is probably one of the most honorable things you could do in life.

Rey being a Skywalker would help explain away Luke's impulses over Kylo in the hut amongst other things. I have said many times that I felt only a vision/attack on Luke's family would push him to the brink. What pushed him to the brink against Vader? A threat from Vader towards his family, Leia.

Anakin and Luke became something they were not, but both could have saved their progeny in the end, making the parallels potent and powerful. Accepting and finding your place in the universe is important, as is accepting your family and the burden of said legacy - warts and all.

Rey deserves her own lightsaber by the end of IX, but nothing will be as symbolic as reconstructing her family's lightsaber fractured down the middle while perhaps allowing Kylo to atone for his sins to restore honor to Han and Leia. I don't think wanting to shield your children from something terrible is a bad thing, although admittedly it will still be a hard sell overall considering Rey's hardships on Jakku, but I would accept it more than the nobody. Too bad the press and such have dug that theory in like an Alabama tick. I could at least digest TLJ and view it in a much different light - I may even *gulp* respect Rian or whoever was responsible for thinking it through if it comes to fruition.

For me that hut scene will really be the poison dart for me. If the reasoning is as shallow/hollow as many are stating or asserting right now, then Legends here I come. I am 2/3 through re-reading the Thrawn trilogy and will just dive into more.

 

I'm talking about the fans who love SW, who will go see the movies multiple times, drag friends and family to see it multiple times, cosplay, buy merch, and generally do perpetual consumption of everything SW

I think there is an emerging narrative that the franchise was damned if they did and damned if they didn't, and I don't think it has any substance. The fans split that are you referring to, is something the franchise did to itself IMO. Every single issue that you listed that you say fans were split on, were created by and alluded to through the marketing through the movies. They wanted the buzz and speculation, just didn't expect the fans to hate the actual product.

The notion that no movie would have avoided this fate and that Rian didn't have any wiggle room read as "puzzling" to me; especially Rian Johnson's wiggle room. I mean you had Rian Johnson himself assert this:

“But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom."

And I didn't think this was a secret, this is one of the major complaints of most of us, that there was too much latitude given to individual writers. To assert now that TFA boxed Rian into a corner regarding Luke, not only contradicts his own statements, but kind of defies how SW has done anthology story telling. Yes Han says Luke blamed himself, so that's the end of it? Obi Wan said Darth Vader killed Luke's father in ANH... what did the next episode reveal?"

Nope you were good, wasn't argumentative or provocative; hopefully I've returned the favor, if not, apologies in advance.

 

Sure they may be opinions too but if opinions contain assumptions the assumptions can definitely be critiqued as such.

It's a useful critical thinking tool to be able distinguish the unstated assumptions behind claims.
There were some pretty big ones there:

• Claiming there was no reason for Luke's apparent “irrational mentality” assumes things about the character we do not know e.g. that he is stable and unable to act rashly out of fear.

• Claiming Luke was "too lazy" to fly over to face Kylo assumes his X-wing was in working order, had enough fuel to get there, and that he had time to make the journey and just couldn't be bothered.

• Claiming "almost everyone who hated this film absolutely loved TFA" makes some pretty obvious assumptions.

• Assuming that Luke never worked on his weakness is another big one.

• Assuming the thoughts and motivations inside Rian Johnson's head another.

Again, nothing wrong with assumption and speculation.
But if we're claiming not to make them while faulting others for doing so we can expect ours to get called out.

[waits to get called out for doing similar things]

I've no issue with the Holdo Maneuver myself but think the Force Download option makes a lot of sense to adopt for those having trouble suspending disbelief over Rey's massive Force Prowerss™.

As to Luke's failure, I think it's kinda cute that us fans put that character on such a pedestal that we can struggle to accept one moment of instinct followed by a few years of fear and regret.
(Assuming there weren't other such periods in the last few decades... )

Nothing wrong or inferior about disliking TLJ in my opinion – there's plenty in the film I cringe at.
But suggesting professional storytellers try to predict and write specifically toward a certain subsection of fans (i.e. fanatics) seems like a very strange and sad course to me.
I'm a fan of some sports but don't get me to dictate the plays - leave it to the pros.

A particularly sad idea for a franchise that gained it's massive fan-base through combining ancient tropes with cheesy TV serials, extreme risk taking, and an almost single-minded creative-dictatorship.

Fair point.
Maybe so - perhaps even deliberately.
Or maybe there was...

• adequate information provided by the story but a dislike of that information...
• or an excessive demand for information from some of the fan base.

Hard to tell.

 

Mmmmm... yeah I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. It's not that that "may" be opinions too, they are opinions. It's no crime for an opinion to incorporate an assumption (even a subjective one).

That notwithstanding I think what's moreso a problem (to my mind's eye) is that it appeared you were critiquing the existence of assumptions, and not the quality. Every opinion incorporates some level assumptions. If the mere presence of an assumption disqualifies a view than all views are disqualified.

Also I think this line of critique invites a similar critique in return, and that is a hamster wheel that no one can get off once it gets turning. The moment one person says, "you don't know that assumption for certain is true", they may retort, "you don't know that it isn't". Then only God can intervene, because now we're operating in a space where "to know any 1 thing for certain, you must know all things". If you just know 1 thing, how do you know there isn't another "thing" out there that refutes it?

Coming right up LOL

The moment is a character anomaly, not only in Luke's life but in the maturation of a Master Jedi. The struggle to accept it just highlights how much established canon and lore this sudden about face in Luke, runs counter to - and for what? For 1 Director's vision?

1. You're assuming it's a subsection. Pesky pesky assumptions
2. Daytime TV doesn't cater to men, because that's not their target audience; they're not the ones that bring in the money, decade after decade. Sporting events typically don't cater to women, because that's not their target audience; they're not the ones that bring in the money, decade after decade. But you think Star Wars should not focus on their core audience, that has brought in money decade after decade? Ok.

 

You...may want to have another gander at our earlier post exchanges, because a huge bulk of them consist of me taking issue with assumptions you make about the film, many of which you fully admit isn't in the film at all (what happened to Luke between films in regards to any brush-ups with the Dark Side being a prime example) and have also found completely acceptable based on speculation alone...speculation that I, someone who refuses to make use of anything other than factual on-screen information, will not partake in.

Was there dislike from fans like myself with the information that was there? Absolutely. A lot of it is contrived and written with the coherence and build-up of a grocery list. But a much larger point of emphasis is the lack of substantial information within the scenes that the film wants us to receive the most emotional investment from.

....which is an infuriating prospect, mostly because most of us don't feel like using head-canon to write the film for Rian.

Wanting information on the world and characters of the Star Wars universe in the 30 years between films isn't "an excessive demand for information." The Fantastic Beasts movies are doing a better job laying out the foundation for the world and characters for Harry Potter, and those are spin-off movies largely concerned with complete side-characters like Albus Dumbledore and Gerlert Grindlewald.

Let me repeat that: A collection of spin-offs about secondary characters is demonstrating better world-building and character development than the current main-saga Star Wars films, a series that literally thrives on its world and characters.

I don't think asking for the current writers and Story Group to better expand on those things on-screen instead of relegating them to vague details or off-screen material is asking too much, let alone "demanding excessive information."

 

Amen! If I could I'd upvote this post a thousand times. The wife and I recently binge watched Rebels, and both of us were impressed with the level of character development and world building. Heck there were 22 minute long episodes of a cartoon that had better character development than was found in the entirety of Episode VIII.

And I'm with you on the point about being frustrated by the fact that I needed to use head-cannon to fill in the gaps for Rian. One of the things I liked was the idea of grizzled and bitter Luke. But there is no reason for this given. Well, no good reason. One moment of anger on the part of Luke is what is given as the reason, which I just couldn't buy. Apparently neither could Mark. In an interview published right before (or after) TLJ was released he even said himself that he needed to come up with a backstory to explain why Luke was mentally in the place he was in. What is up with that? Pretty much says RJ had a weak story when your actor has to come up with the reasoning on his own.

 

Of course not and this is all beside the point.

Maybe I was unclear but I was addressing assumption hypocrisy which is why I'm reading your posts like they are trying to de-legitimize and detract from my point.

First you say “they're not assumptions they're opinions so can't be critiqued as assumptions” then when I illustrate and critique the assumptions you ignore them and derail back to a discussion about opinions.

Your another reasonable character so maybe I'm just too opaque.

This is closer to my point.
I was calling out the existence of assumptions - but only because the poster had criticized me for criticizing the same and I wanted to point out the irony of it all.

It's really not that big a deal anyway.
Lesson learned - beware pointing out hypocrisy on the internet!
Negativity just hampers momentum, is irritating, course...sorry, that's sand again...but you know how it is - it gets everywhere.

If there's one thing I've learned on this forum it's that its natural to ignore points we agree on or get corrected on, and to move straight onto the next disagreement.

I suppose in terms of Jedi it's an unusual event, an extreme event, a deviation from the normal or common order.

Of course we know it happens now and again.
Even Master Jedi can succumb (temporarily or not) to the Dark through beclouding, attachment, and moments of fear - it's their most prominent danger.

You could probably have a serious discussion at The Cantina about whether it's an anomaly for Luke.
There's probably good points for and against.

My comment referred to a subsection of fans with non-negotiable expectations.
A section within TLJ haters, a section within the fan-base, a section of the audience.
Where's my assumptions here?

No I wouldn't say that.

I just don't think they should focus on presenting what sections of the fan-base may want.
I think Lucasfilm should continue to do what it's always done.
I think they should focus on their own formula, within the rules and limitations they've chosen, and let the fans who are professional writers/filmmakers (and tick all the boxes Lucasfilm require) continue creating the best stories they can.

Then we just hope.
It's OK to lack agency over the creative decisions of an entertainment franchise we love.
Sure there's always a chance of the odd dud coming through - it's always a risk with art - but one that's probably being mitigated as best it possibly can.

That's true.

The key is that that my examples were only presented to provide counter possibilities for the assumptions and speculations I read into your points about the film, the filmmakers, and Luke's mindset and weaknesses.

My examples weren't personal head-canon, speculation I carry, or suggestions I was advocating for.

That's what's so ridiculous:
1) that my entire point fell on deaf ears or was incomprehensible
2) that what you took issue with in my posts is exactly what I was trying to highlight.

But yeah, you're not wrong.

P.S. I did look back at our conversation and it was a lot more interesting and informative to me than I recalled before we got hung up on assumptions.
I think it's a classic example of similar people with a lot of common ground becoming adversarial in a quagmire of misunderstanding.

 

As I mentioned before, it's certainly fair game to take anyone to task on their opinion, because those opinions will be based on logic and assumptions and they won't all be of the same caliber and credibility. I'm not trying to detract from your point, I am small issue to whatever you two are actually debating. I trust you and @Darth_Nobunaga to reach some understanding completely separate from this conversation (even if it is just to agree to disagree).
My concern was that it appeared that you were critiquing the existence of assumptions in an opinion and that net casts "far and wide". But it sounds like you're saying you're not and it's not your intent, so very well. I'll leave you two to it.

I think it's an anomaly for both. It's obviously not impossible for Jedi to fall, but my guess is that Rian figured he could always just blame/defend his actions on disfiguring Luke, by saying he picked up the Campbellian archetype after the Hero's journey and asked the question "what happens when the hero gets old?" Part of the problem is that we already know what happens when Master Jedi get old (see Yoda and Obi Wan), this wasn't a problem that needed to be solved nor a mystery that needed to be explored. And I certainly wouldn't pay much to see it explored, let alone having it come at the cost of upending cherished and well established character profiles in an entirely unwarranted bid to subvert audience expectations. I'd argue (and make a strong case) that it's aberrent behavior for a Master Jedi.

And as for Luke himself? I think it was an anomaly for him as well. With less training and maturity, Luke declined to kill Vader (who actually responsible for the death of hundreds, if not thousands, or maybe even millions), it does not stand to reason IMO that with more growth and maturity that Luke would be tempted to kill his nephew for something he hadn't actually done yet. We get a pretty good glimpse into who Luke becomes not only in ROTJ, but in the cut scenes in Battlefront II where he actually obtains the compass that shows up in TLJ. He is compassionate, kind, and wise in Battlefront II. There is really nothing in the materials that justifies the hard turn that Rian pretends was an organic development. We can see seeds planted for some things that show up in TLJ (the compass, hyperspace tracking) but Luke's de-evolution is not one of them.

I think one thing that has benefitted the MCU is that they have listened to their fans. SW doesn't seem to have learned that lesson. Because let's be real, the casual observer isn't going to care about lack of continuity between movies, some of the audience is literally joining this adventure mid-stream, they are much more easily sated than fans who have been following this for decades. I don't disagree that they should focus on a formula, but it should be the one that's actually produced results. I do not feel they are creating the best stories they can right now. What we got last time was what Rian wanted to see in SW, not the ardent fans, and this fall out is the result. As long as Rian is a part of SW I'm not sure how this could be considered just a blip on the radar. The new trilogy is still happening, and with Rian involved I probably won't patronize it. I'd like to see new SW, but what he demonstrated to me in TLJ is that he doesn't get it. He gets visuals, he gets the Campbell model, but he doesn't get the magic of SW at all. That KK and LFL don't see that I think is very problematic.

 

But it all depends on who is established as the hero and who as the villain, and in this trilogy it appears we won’t know this until episode 9. The jump from villain to hero is possible, and it is perhaps the most interesting story to tell.

Family understood as “belonging” is most likely what Rey is looking for and what she will be rewarded with in the end.

Luke became a myth for his role in eliminating the emperor. That’s what is said in TFA and TLJ.

No. Star Wars is not a myth, modern or old. Star Wars is a story, tale or fairytale which has mythical themes. Within SW Luke is a myth because his story with Darth Vader and the empire is of a supernatural or mystical nature within the SW world itself (force power) and explains the destruction of the evil empire. The relatability of the myth of Perseus and Medusa came to us thanks to the genius of Roman poet Ovid, who rooted the myth of supernatural creatures in the real world of feelings and emotions. That is what good authors do with myths, even if these myths are just made up. I think RJ brought personal conflict to the “myth” of Luke Skywalker and did it in a fairly relatable manner.

Ok, let’s give you factual on screen information of how Luke’s momentary impulse to kill Kylo is consistent with his character and experience in TLJ and previous films:

- Luke is impulsive and rash. In ESB he is impatient as Yoda’s student and decides to confront Vader well before he is ready.
- In ROTJ Luke is set to kill his own father before he realises this killing will only corrupt him. The selfish desire to save what he loves takes over momentarily before he realises he should not kill Vader. This happens to him again in Kylo’s hut 40 years later. This was an instinctual move, as he himself confessed, consistent with his impulsive nature aforementioned. Unfortunately this time his momentary lapse had terrible results.
- in TFA Han says that Luke blamed himself for what happened to that “student”.
- In TLJ Luke admits to Rey that his hubris after turning Vader blindsided him. He blames himself fist for being an arrogant Jedi Master, ill-equipped to conquer evil, and after for being an unwise person and precipitating Kylo’s turn to the dark.

It’s all in the films.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 31, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 31, 2018 ---

It was moment of weakness at odds with what a Jedi master would do, but that is luke, a hero who was always relatable because he made bad calls. He was never meant to be a fully fledged Jedi master, like obi one or yoda, or even Vader... This was never insinuated in the previous films. He needed to surmount the challenges proposed in episode 8 to finally become one. That is why, in the end, he defeated kylo using no violence.

 

I know a lot of people want it and it makes the most sense to them. I am also not stating it will happen, but that she should be a Skywalker as SW saga is the story of that family. Anything else IMO is odd. Kylo has kind of already crossed a line. There will be plenty of opportunities to move away from this family in the coming years. If it goes the way I think it might, Rey would receive both belonging and deeper understanding of her heritage. The Skywalker's have always been battling the dark/light within themselves in only makes sense that symbolism reflects on screen. As I have stated in a couple of threads, look to the lightsaber split in two. It seems to be practically screaming at us. As crazy as it sounds, Rian may be forgiven to a degree in 2019. Kylo is a part of the Skywalkers and he will be redeemed for Han/Leia's sake by himself or Rey, but he will probably not survive as Vader did not.

Pretty cheeky for the story group.....

In TLJ yes it was mentioned to Rey, but I think he would be more of a celebrity in the flesh than a man of myth. Think of him as a sports figure who just won the championship. His face was probably plastered all over screens throughout the galaxy. I imagine he would have been hunted or sought out for various motives after the events of ROTJ, etc.

I disagree, for the last 40 years it has been both. If we removed TV and cinema, this would be a modern version of mythology people would tell to their children. You can almost hear the titles 'Luke Skywalker and the Deathstar', 'Luke Skywalker and the Swamp Master'

 

Mythology emerged as and attempt to explain the world and human essence in a primitive time when there was no science or academic knowledge. SW on the other hand is a work of fiction made to entertain. I do not dispute that it uses mythological archetypes, as done in fairy tales and legends, and that there is a morality tale contained in the story, but it’s not a real myth in the way mythology is traditionally understood.

 

Hold on a second, as there is a difference between his confrontation with Vader and Ben Solo. Luke gave himself up to Vader on Endor and THEN Vader took him to the Emperor and stood by his masters side while The Emperor goaded Luke about killing his friends/rebel fleet. Luke went after The Emperor (not Vader) and Vader jumped in and still took The Emperor's back and fought Luke. Luke continued to say he would not fight, but Vader continued to stalk him and goad him eventually saying he would turn his sister.

Everything with Ben Solo was premeditated, as he was never attacked, he was never goaded, it was all 'what if.' That is why I don't like when people compare ROTJ and TLJ saying Luke did the same thing, when he was attacked by Vader in ROTJ after being goaded by The Emperor, and HE was the one who was going to attack a defenseless Ben Solo.

 

To be fair, in TFA Rey says that she thought Luke Skywalker was a “myth”. By that she means an invention, someone not real, simply a fictional story. This is exactly what myths are, fictions that explain reality and giving moral lessons. Afterwards, Han clarifies that Luke, the Jedi, all is true. Luke is not a myth anymore in fairness. He’s now a legend: a story based in real events. Luke calls himself a legend in TLJ, so, yes, we could say that within the world of SW Luke is a real life hero, as you pointed out.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 31, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 31, 2018 ---

But Ben Solo was not without fault. He was dark side "riddled", was a danger, a threat. Luke knew this and thought he could stop the suffering he knew he would inflict... and this was not a premeditated act. Luke himself explains the intention of killing Ben was a fleeting thought, something that quickly passed. RJ used it however to give Kylo the reason he needed to turn.

There is an equivalence there. In both cases Luke reacted to a threat.

 

The problem isn't that any of those things aren't factual---they are. I never disputed any of those things happening in any of the films. My issue is how those factors were used to justify Luke's actions in the films themselves. Just because Luke made a mistake 30 years prior to TLJ doesn't mean that is the only kind of mistake he's capable of making, especially when the mistake in question was so traumatic and conducive to long-term effect as it was in ESB. Whether or not it was a mistake he made in the past films is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the speculation I was speaking of---it's the fact that he's making it again, in a context and situation which doesn't even remotely justify repeating the same mistake. Luke isn't the same age, filled with the same youthful impulse or naivety, or in the same frantic situation he was in either ESB or ROTJ. He wasn't seeing a vision of something that would happen in the next 24 hours, or being emotionally manipulated by a pair of Sith while his friends were potentially dying outside the observatory window of the battle station he was standing on....he was witnessing a vision for something that wouldn't happen until years later, a vision concerning someone who hadn't even done those atrocities yet, with plenty of time to remedy Kylo's downfall before it happened, a boy who he had spent time training and bonding as both nephew and apprentice. Even if you could argue that Luke making this kind of mistake makes sense in regards to his character in past films, his action in the context of this film isn't well-written at all.

The consistency with previous films isn't the problem. It's the terrible implementation of those flaws, in a situation where the conveyance and execution are laughably-bad, and don't come close to warranting the resulting story elements following that moment of weakness showcased by Luke. It'd be like if Batman decided to prevent the creation of further orphans in the world by starting a bakery that poisons criminals with poisonous muffins. Does the angle regarding orphans make sense? Certainly, with his backstory. But the story's use of that mentality and backstory is lousy. Just because a plot-point vaguely economizes on an existing character trait doesn't make it a well-written or effective one. And Luke trying to kill Kylo Ren in TLJ was neither.

Moreover, the "speculation" angle to the conversation I was having with Moral Hazard was purely on his speculation of what could've happened between films to justify Luke showing no proper growth or development by making this mistake all over again. He speculated that Luke could have had multiple failed experiences brushing up against the Dark Side in the three decades between ROTJ and TFA, among many other hypotheses that he himself admitted weren't supported by any hard evidence within the actual films. I had the same cascade of head-canon flung at me when I brought up the issue of the Jedi Texts earlier in this thread, or Yoda shooting lighting as a ghost. This is the kind of speculation I don't partake in: it's asking me and many others to display the kind of creativity that the writers for these films are paid copious amounts of money to do themselves.

I paid for a finished product. I'm not going to fill in crucial blanks in the story because of the poor planning and juvenile writing skills of the people helming these movies.