THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

And now watch the "good guys" going to Mike Zeroh ( even if I don't like his vids ) and do to him what they blamed us to do with KMT.

Unless noone here never send anything to KMT ...

 

Where do you live Corn Cream?

 

America

 

There really isn't anything to look forward to; I've asked a few times and got really nebulous answers (from folks who were pro and con TLJ). The interesting threads were tied off, ones that we don't care about were left open. Like, I don't even know what the draw is supposed to be other than finishing the trilogy I guess. I wasn't against Ben-redemption (even though I know people would complain about it being too much like the OT in structure). There were ways to make it different enough if you are actually creative. But after they sabotaged virtually every arc in TLJ to showcase Kylo, I'm done with Ben redemption. It will be interesting to see TLJ apologists try to pivot and recover if EPIX upends some of the story points from TLJ (specifically Rey being a nobody)

That said, I have seen bad movies in theaters before, I guess the SW bothered me the most because for most of the bad movies I knew what I was getting into. When I saw Final Destination 4, I knew what I signed up for, and I got it. Couldn't really complain. I "thought" I knew what I signed up for when I went to see TLJ, instead I got a subverted version of it at every possible turn. EPIX might end up being economically successful, but it faces a head wind because of TLJ (not only in terms of story but fan momentum and enthusiasm). They are not going to do big numbers initially.

I'll be one of those people that still goes to see it first possible day (just like I did for Solo) who will do a review. I don't expect much. I doubt it could be as bad as TLJ, but they can't fix everything that went wrong with TLJ and tell their own story on top of it and end the trilogy in a satisfactory way. Just too much of an ask out of one movie.

 

When I had time to think about it, my head canon/fan interest is seeing the Skywalker lineage continue, not so much preserving Ben. If they want to throw a new Skywalker branch into the mix or a secret child that Luke had, I'm fine with Kylo perishing. He has earned it. If they're just set on ending both, so be it, but if I had to pick one over the other, it's lineage over Kylo by a country mile.

Strategically there is an upside to killing off fan speculation, but there is a huge downside marketing wise (IMO). I think they relied heavily (and benefited enormously) on hype stoked by speculation leading up to, during, and after teaser material being released. Are they planning to adjust their marketing approach? My guess is no. Especially not now, not after a controversial episode, it would have the appearance that the brand took a hit after TLJ (which is something they have fastidiously avoided saying to the point where now I don't think they could even if they wanted to). The roll out of the film, I suspect, has to happen as though there was no problem with TLJ (because that's the position they've taken) with no tone down in marketing hype, providing every opportunity and indeed inviting fans to speculate.

I just don't think it can work. If TLJ had been a raging success with fans, I think they could choose to change their marketing approach however they wanted. But after circling the wagons so tightly and putting the onus on over zealous fans for issues, they are married to that narrative. The movie ultimately (I think) will be fun and feel more like a SW movie than TLJ but I think they need "more" than that to salvage things. But I just don't think the stars will align for them to thread so many necessary needles for EPIX to be successful and to successfully tying up the trilogy. I'll be happy to be wrong, but I don't think I will be.

 

A better story imo would have been you have Kylo, mostly trained with years of experience plus very gifted in his own right.

Then you have Rey who's superbly gifted but realize the lack of training does hinder her in a one on one with Kylo despite her natural talent.

Then you have Finn, who has some slight affinity to the force and needs Rey (and possibly Luke) to help him develop what potential he has because Rey on her own cannot take on Kylo and his years of training and own substantial gifts.

Then you have Luke as an Obi-Wan/Yoda type mentor forming a relationship with both apprentices at once, something he doesn't want to do, but he realizes is necessary because Kylo has to be stopped and he knows Kylo, surrounded by his minions would never allow Luke to get within striking distance (due to his being a bigger threat as well as his hate for him).

I think it would have been cool to see the contrast of supremely gifted vs just barely force sensitive on the same team as a tandem. Their different approaches to the Force and their training, as well as Luke's choices on how to train them both. I think it would have been innovative, and by itself it would have created a totally different story from previous films. Keep the romance somewhat similar to TFA/TLJ, in that Finn is somewhat infatuated with Rey as is Kylo, but she sees Finn more as a good friend/brother and Kylo as mysterious but not really relationship material. Focus on the friendship rather then the romance.

Finn could have arrived at Ach-to as Rey leaves and despite his lesser power and gifts, succeeds where she "fails" by not going toward the darkness.

There are many different ways they could have went, and as much as I enjoy coming up with alternate possibilities, it's kind of useless now, since we got what we got however disappointing I find the story.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 4, 2018 ---

It's sad, but for the first time in my life, I'm more interested in things like marketing and company strategy and seeing how things slowly unfold until and beyond opening night and the lip service they give fans then I am about IX itself. The movie itself is the side show and now the narrative Disney/LFL put out is the big ticket, which I don't have to buy a ticket for.

 

From a story point, I think it could be done, logistically I don't think they can (unless they throw a lot of the meaningful development and signature moments into the time skip). Like Rian locked this guy into the bad guy's role with his plot points. If Snoke hadn't been killed off and if Kylo had waivered the entire film and the cliff hanger was (does he turn or doesn't he in EPIX) I could see it. Rian says, he doesn't turn, he commits to the dark. I just don't think there's enough time to unwrite Rian's direction here. If it was a Quadrilogy instead of a Trilogy, then I could see it. With just one film left? Unlikely. I don't think I'm going to see any of the things I wanted out of any of the characters. I guess they can make Kylo a convincing bad guy who comes into his own in that way. Less out of control, more powerful, more menacing, more cunning, more dangerous. They could do that.

But Rey, Finn, and Poe are screwed. I don't see a meaningful arc for Rey to becoming a triumphant hero (there was nothing to triumph over, no obstacle, no impediment, she has it all already), I don't see a meaningful arc for Finn doing anything (since the most that was apparently imagined for coming into his own was that he was Resistance - be still my beating heart) and I guess it's ok that Poe is going into leadership, but that takes him out of his X-wing (where I really enjoyed his skills) and I haven't really seen why becoming a "leader" matters for him. I know the Resistance needs leaders so his ability to impact will be direct and immediate, but I don't see how this will improve his actual profile by commanding from the flight deck. Poe becomes Admiral Ackbar... we're excited for this because...? What? Rose could have a level up, I mean instead of being a mechanic maybe she could do R&D and invent new weapons and tech that helps turn the war, it can't just be repairing old X-wings. She has to have something that makes her meaningful.

I don't get the sense that they've learned much from SOLO except to argue that its problems were unrelated to TLJ. TLJ wasn't the only problem they had but I think they are vastly overstating some of the issues and vastly underestimating the impact that TLJ had on it (or at least they are publicly). I could be wrong though. Maybe they are making some of the same observations we are quietly behind closed doors.

They are in a bit of a no-win situation here. If they don't do fan services, fans will say they are out of touch and thoroughly ruining the franchise with each movie. If they do too many fan services or they're too overt (as I suspect they will), fans will say they are pandering with too little too late and ruining the franchise.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 4, 2018 ---

I feel like they've painted themselves into a corner on this. Like no matter where they win, they lose elsewhere. And here's the thing, I thought the Marketing Campaign for TFA (prior to seeing the movie) was masterful. Even now, the trailers for TFA and TLJ are light years better than the trailers for the OT and ST. To this day the Official TFA trailer isn't just the best trailer for a SW movie I've seen, it's the best trailer I've seen period. But the movie didn't live up to the trailer. I think it starts with advertising Luke, and then having him largely absent during the film. And while I think it's certainly expected that they not let the cat out of the bag for major plot points, I think when your "Big Gotcha" moment is that the guy who you billeted as a hero, isn't actually the hero but someone else... it doesn't work. And I'm not sure why people thought it would.

There are a lot of twists and turns that you can throw in that the fans will accept, disguising the villains to the last second, disguising the real mcguffin, all sorts of things you can switch up... but who your actual hero is isn't one of them (not for any movie, let alone SW). I have no idea why they thought that would fly. If Rey was supposed to be the main hero all along, there is no point in showing her with a staff and Finn with a LS on posters. It just doesn't make any sense (to this day). I thought TLJ was going to be the thing that turned around the mistakes of TFA, instead Rian was like, "oh you had problems with JJ's movie? Hold my beer". LOL. He said not only was Finn not a main character, but the film isn't even about THE main character Rey, it's about her nemesis. Like? Who is green lighting these wild right turns in story telling? LOL. And now they have to try to mop up this septic tank explosion AND market it to a fan base that's asking what's their motivation for going to see the last movie?

I mean who can thread the eye of this needle? LOL. This is a HUGE ask.

 

Seems like the right place to put this:

Now TV in the UK.
Latest Jumanji film - 4 stars (or 4.5, I can't remember exactly)
The Last Jedi - 2.5 stars (the retrospect rating kinda goes against the ratings given when the film came out)

The film has nearly killed the franchise, it all rests on the next installment.

 

Um......it did work. That's why it's the 3rd biggest film ever made earning over 2 billion.


If you look the advertising (with non-Finn fan goggles) it accomplished exactly what they wanted

 

If we go by what a hero really is, It's not Rey. Heroes make decisions that change the outcome of events. They make choices where they could lose everything, but they do it anyway, because it is the right thing to do. Finn was meant to be the hero in this trilogy. Skill set isn't the deciding factor. It's free will. Luke and Finn have that in common. Rey maybe powerful, but she hasn't made one decision that defines her as a hero.

 

getting into the escape Pod on the falcon and giving herself up to the FO to try and save Ben all on her own wasn't heroic?

lol.. tough crowd!

 

She saved the remaining Resistance by helping them out the cave.

Finn is a hero, but he wasn't meant to be THE hero of the trilogy.
Hell, Boyega was one of the last main actors cast in Spring 2014. While Daisy got the part back in December 2013.

Daisy even already had the part, and Boyega had to audition with her to see if he would get the part.

Much like Kelly had to audition with Boyega for The Last Jedi.

 

No, I thought it was dumb and naïve for her to run off thinking she could save Ben. She got played by Snoke and Kylo, that's how it came off to me. Even more now that I watched TLJ again on Netflix. Yes, I forced myself to sit through it again … it took me nearly three days because I kept shutting it off after too many infuriating and stupid scenes. The first time it lost me after Leia Poppins, which I did find unintentionally hilarious during this viewing. So I did give it one more watch and my feelings haven't changed. The only scene that I genuinely liked and that stirred real emotion in me was the Leia and Luke scene, er, Leia and force projection Luke scene. Really heartfelt sweet scene there and I loved Luke giving Han's dice to Leia. There, I said something nice about TLJ.

 

isn't it a dumb and naive action in almost every big movie that defines the hero?
was Luke dumb and naive when he gave himself up to Vader on Endar? The Emperor and Vader already knew he would that he would come to them.. so they were playing him right?

whether she was played by Snoke or Kylo is neither here not there.. she risked everything to do what she thought was the right thing.

i think Rey was heroic AND naive, but maybe that's just me. we all see these things differently

 

So what you're saying is that you think she should be perfect, flawless, unfailing and infallible at all times, from the very start and until the end? A 'Mary Sue' is what you actually want her to be? Okay.

Personally I don't see what is so interesting about that.

 

Well, yes, she is a movie character, that has to go through a character arc and grow because of it. It's that the point of, you know, character arcs? And stories in general, for that matter?
Also, there is a reason why Rey does what she does and it's not that hard to figure out.

 

Ugh, what have I done? I told myself I wouldn't post in this thread anymore and get into this stuff, but here I am! I see a very big difference between Luke in ROTJ and Rey in TLJ. Besides the huge difference in general development, Luke warned Rey, she ran off anyway. I found it foolish and arrogant. In ROTJ, the character of Luke had already been through training and learned about the force and Vader and he seemed to understand what he may be getting himself into. I didn't feel like Rey was at that point and she seemed to think her vision was going to come true, he'd turn and all would be right in the galaxy. It came off as knee jerk, impulsive decision that was not well thought through. Again, my interpretation. You see it a different way and that's fine.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 4, 2018 ---

I don't know how you came to this conclusion, but let's review. No, I don't want a bigger Mary Sue than we already have. I want some development where our main hero doesn't come off as foolish and arrogant thinking she can save the world. And maybe show a little humility after she makes the wrong decision. Luke paid physically and emotionally after his poor decisions in ESB. Rey squeezed out a couple of tears and went on as if nothing happened.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 4, 2018 ---

Well thanks for the wealth of knowledge. I have seen no growth for this character at all. She moves from one thing to another with relative ease and nothing seems to shake her. There's nothing relatable or rootable with her.

 

Yoda warned Luke, but he ran off anyway. He was foolish and arrogant - and he suffered as a result. He learned a hard truth about his heritage (as did Rey) and he lost a hand. At least Rey made it back with all her limbs!

I am of course referring to Luke in TESB. I know comparisons have been made between Rey and Luke in ROTJ, and the confrontation in the throne room draws that comparison, but we are still in the middle episode of the trilogy, and Rey's journey is still a parallel to Luke's in TESB.

Yes, but like I said, we should really be comparing her to the Luke of TESB. Luke had training with Yoda, then went to confront Vader. Rey had training with Luke and then went to confront Kylo. Of course, by ROTJ, Luke has actually had no more training, but he's been through the experience of that confrontation, and came away from it not joining Vader to rule over the galaxy as 'father and son'. Although not literally the same offer, Rey has also left the confrontation not joining Kylo.