THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I don't get it sorry... it's probably my fault, but I really don't understand what you are trying to say and I'd love to.

However, there's one thing I can say: I think everybody wants SW to be successful.

And when I say everybody I mean fans - them all, even those who hated TLJ and took it too personally - but the media as well.

All of them.

No matter if you are a well known magazine or website, or a guy with a channel on youtube (from Collider to Mike Zeroh to be clear)
the more a franchise is successful, the more attention, audience you get. The more money you may make.

At the same time, magazines like Variety, EW sure can survive without SW, but if SW is there and it is as successful as it has always been, their
issues with the SW covers and contenents are destinated to sell far more than they do on a daily basis, without SW or something else that big.
And not: it's not clever to push a franchise instead of another. I mean it's not that they'll push Marvel instead of SW.
They'll push them both: it's more money.

That said, I think that is the real reason as to why they are butting heads nowdays.

I'm one who those who disliked the movie quite a lot. It's not secret.
However, the argument I'm going to use, it's not that I'm sure that the vast majority of the fandom did it as well.
I'm going to pretend that I don't have an opinion, because that it's not what matters.

What matters, and what I'm pretty sure about, is only that those of us who are more active on internet are divided.
And this is the kind of people that media - for the reasons above - are interested in.

Now, some of them are trying to appeal those who disliked the movie and they are growing - and some are born - just because
there are people that want to complain about the movie.

Others that made profits - huge profits - even before, when the TFA was the success it was, getting almost everyone back on board
are trying to recreate the same "magic" pretending that the others do not existe.

The problem - imo - is that they are both wrong.

Or to say it better they are not helping their own cause, because this kind of behavior tends to exasperate the divisions (just because
it marginalizes people on the other side of the spectrum).

 

I don't buy that Disney/LFL/RJ/KK limited Boyega's role due to insecure viewers or haters. Nor do I think that Rey's romance in TLJ was due to outside sources wanting that romance. I believe in both cases it was decisions and things that struck RJ when he read the script and viewed TFA that he worked with and put into his movie. It was something RJ wanted in his movie. The reason I say this is because if they had retconned anything it would have been Rey, because after TFA, her story was still very malleable. It wouldn' t have even felt like a retcon had they said something along the lines...

... Rey did attend Luke's school and met with Ben and the future KoR, but her loser parents changed their minds and took her back once they realized how valuable she could be. Luke fought it but the Republic intervened, a Republic influenced by Snoke. That's where Rey got her training which was blocked by Luke in an attempt to mitigate the damage Rey could do moving forward as an adept force user. This explains Kylo's apparent familiarity with Rey (that girl) in TFA. It would have explained her use of Jedi technique, and it wouldn't have taken anything away from her as a powerful female character. The story could have continued much as it has, with just a couple "deep" throw away lines, and the romance between Rey and Kylo would have made slightly more sense since she could have had a crush on the kind older popular student before she left. Thus she could have sensed a familiarity in him...

So they had the simple solution there, but chose not to go there. If they weren't ready to compromise in such a slight way for Rey, I don't see them compromising in any way for Finn. Finn, imo, was a product of writing a story that RJ loved and including something for Finn to do as filler and afterthought, because he simply didn't have a heck of a lot of interest in that character. That's my behind the scenes head canon anyways, and I haven't seen anyone state anything that makes any more sense. You are of course free to keep your own, but I only hope you understand as I do, that this is head canon and that we'll never truly know what their throught process while making these movies.

As for SW, it will survive just fine. I was at my son's school Wednesday for his first day and was surprised at how many SW shirts and school bags there were. I think it may take a hit, but mostly the fan base will shift slightly and a new generation may get into it and the new stories. Because of that, I think JJ will have a lot of work cut out for him to polish out some of the blemishes from TLJ. Either have a back story or something about the Rey/Kylo romance. Fix up the Luke Ben arc a bit. I fully expect there to be some damage control in IX and the lovers will hate it, but it will appease some of the haters. I don't see many lovers leaving the franchise if the retcons and clever enough, I do however see a lot of haters coming back if an olive branch is extended, because as it was stated many times in these threads by many haters, we want to love SW.

 

you do love Star Wars. anyone doubting that is an idiot - and i would have words with anyone saying as much.

The Last Jedi did not go the way anyone thought.. we all posted our theories and thoughts on leaks while TLJ was being made, but no sod got close.

I wanted Ben redeemed. I wanted Rey to be Luke's daughter. I wanted Finn to miraculously discover the force. I wanted Snoke to be the biggest bad ass ever. I wanted Hux to be the second biggest bad ass ever. I wanted to see the KOR. etc etc etc.
luckily for me.. the biggest thing i wanted from a SW movie was something different and something challenging for us to debate. They may have gone a smidgen further down that road than i would have wanted lol, but it was very different and i found myself enjoying it.

This is going to sound like utter madness, but i'm not sure JJ needs to extend olive branches... because i think that the movie will have (and was always planned imo) some very big twists and turns. I think the second act was supposed to take us to the edge, and i believe act 3 will pull us back in.

have faith.. and keep loving Star Wars. you've got nothing to lose at this point.. so let's look forward to seeing how on earth Abrams can bring this home for all of us

 

I wasn't on these forums before TLJ. I lurked a bit, but very selectively (wanting to understand how Rey could use mind trick... I read the theory of trained, mind blocked, and kylo's force rape removed mind block... I found that acceptable and moved on reading nothing else) but mostly I had some ideas, but wasn't overly consumed or tied to any theory. I did not care about Snoke, but expected him to last like the Emperor did. His death was a surprise, and mostly I liked it, but I did have some nagging issues with it. I assumed Rey was Luke's daughter, based mostly on Leia hugging her without knowing her at that point. I don't feel I was invested. I had never thought about a Kenobit or Palpatine relationship before viewing TLJ(and joining the forums shortly thereafter). I don't know what I expected out of Finn, but his whole arc in TLJ I found horribly disappointing. I expected Luke to be grumpy, we knew a student had destroyed his academy, and if not outright, at least highly implied it was Kylo/Ben. That alone was enough for me to accept that Luke would have fled into hiding. Not detecting Kylo's darkness in time to stop the school's destruction, not to mention the harm to his students and breaking the trust those families had entrusted in him. There were many threads VIII could have taken to explain Luke's hiding, I don't think Luke's creeping into his nephews room to do what was done in TLJ was needed at all. I thought we'd see Leia manipulate the Force in some way, maybe have a lightsaber, if not ignited, at least on her hip. Beyond that I was pretty open to what they'd show me. I wanted to be entertained. I was not.

 

I think that the interrogation scene in TFA was set to show rey’s power in the force and set her as a fitting adversary for kylo. There is no doubt about Rey’s animosity against Kylo and about Kylo’s reprimanding, belittling language towards her. But in that scene I also noticed a dynamic between both in the shape of a curiosity and confusion about each other (rather than an attraction per se). I write a little myself and I felt that that dynamic opened the door to an interesting conflict and assumed that RJ (as a writer) noticed it too and decided to delve into it in TLJ. I think he has admitted this much in interviews, although I’m well aware many don’t take what he says at face value. I do, but nevermind...

Also, I don’t think that “force Skype”, as you call it, is there to “force” human emotion (pun not intended), but to “facilitate” it. I don’t see anything contrived about RJ bringing these two characters together in this way. Force telepathic interactions like these are consistent with what we have seen in SW films before. Besides it makes sense and feels natural and right having Kylo and Rey interact with each other at a human level: Rey is a nice person and new to the force and to war. She needs to understand her enemy.

Of course, having Rey discovering Kylo’s remnants of humanity doesn’t mean that she has forgotten about Finn and Han, or about Kylo’s wrongdoings. There is evidence of her anger when she sees Kylo. In the first force encounter, Rey shoots him, in the second she calls him a monster, and also in the third she reproaches him too (“why did you do it? Why did you kill him?). The audience is not expected to “thaw out” their indignation but to understand, like Rey wants to understand.

Personally the only bit I find forced is Kylo’s bare chest... I think it was too distracting and added nothing to the scene. This is where RJ used fan service, I think, in a meta way rather than in the story, like a wink to the audience. I could have done without it.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 7, 2018 ---

No, for me Rey has zero conflict. I have seen no shades of darkness in her. She wants to help the cause and her friends. She wants to do the right thing. I only see evidence of that. This could change of course. It would be interesting if it did.

I’m not sold on kylo turning completely to the dark and not feeling conflicted anymore. His face after after he saw Rey shut the door on him said it all. His rage at Luke too. A proper dark side lord is cool and collected. He’s not. I might be wrong though. Who knows.

Rey has learnt kylo is not ready to give the dark side up. She also knows her enemy better than before too, his weaknesses. That’s a lot to learn in one film.

 

And Johnson had allowed Rey and Kylo Ren to act on this . . . what? This "dynamic" two or three days after the events of "TFA"? That doesn't even make any sense. If Johnson really wanted to explore this, he should have volunteered to write and direct the third film or set "TLJ" a lot later than he did. And to make matters worse, Johnson dangerously came close to portraying Finn as some kind of joke, someone who required constant lecturing (which he seemed to use Rose for) or someone to be conveniently forgotten. What was his problem with Finn anyway? Did the idea of the character's relationship with Rey (in what ever form) bother him that much?

 

What doesn’t make sense exactly? Kylo and Rey being, although antagonists, curious and confounded about each other, or Johnson using it it to imbue their antagonism with human emotion? ( by human emotion I mean understanding and connection at a human level, nothing else, no more rants about Reylo alluding to my posts, anyone. I’m not talking about Reylo here.)

I didn’t much like Finn’s story line either but I would not interpret it as RJ having anything against the character... I would not read that much into it.

 

I know what I said was pretty harsh, but it needed to be said. RJ didn't make mistakes. A mistake is when you don't know any better. He knew better, because Mark Hamill told him. He purposely went into TLJ to make a story about a scene that was probably less than 10 minutes from TFA. The interrogation wasn't the movie, because it wasn't the catalyst for the movie. Finn was.

Using the connection was garbage, and as far as I am concerned Rian stole my idea. He just ignored the Finn part of my theory. Rey touched three characters in the film, and depending on how you look at it she was influenced by every one of them, but she doesn't know how.

RJ did the one thing you should NEVER do on film. NEVER bring in new characters to challenge established well received characters. It will never go well. To believe Holdo and Rose would have been well received is asinine.

On top of that to have Rose kiss Finn was a big no no. He had to know that wasn't going to go over well. Everyone who watched TFA knows Rey and Finn's relationship is special. Trying to change that showed his hand. He was intimidated by the relationship of Rey and Finn. Everything he did in TLJ was an attempt to establish Rey and Kylo. It's obvious he didn't care about anything else. RJ has tunnel vision.

Rey calling Kylo by his birth name was another silly idea. She doesn't know him like that. It made Rey look real stupid. Especially since Kylo never tried to portray himself as good. This idiot of a woman saw what she wanted to see which makes no sense since she saw what he did to his father and her only friend. Like her parents Rey shows no loyalty.

 

You could read it in a different way. You could say that Rey was set to explore a path in TLJ (the Kylo “path”) and realised that it leads nowhere... She abandons it in ix and takes the Finn “path”. (Im not talking necessarily about romance but about attachment) Rey seems to have given up on Kylo completely. He’s not her problem anymore. Maybe it will become someone else’s: Leia’s, Lando’s, Chewie’s... or he’ll just turn into the big villain many want.
I don’t think anything is set in stone. You could take the events of TLJ and bring them in the direction you want. That’s not a bad thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2018 ---

I think this was the point that they were trying to make, that Rey is/was too naive (a more sympathetic term than stupid) believing that Kylo would turn to the light and help the resistance simply because she showed him sympathy about the incident of Luke lighting his saber in the Jedi academy hut.

 

Rian wrote this story even before TFA hit theaters. So no, he didn't steal your idea.

This is not entirely true. You bring in supportive characters to challenge and devolop your main characters. Rey, Finn and Poe are all main characters. So they couldn't have challenged each other. Rey was challanged by Luke (but she also challenged Luke himself). Finn was challanged by Rose and Poe by Holdo. Yes, you could have done it much, much better though...

I've never seen Rey and Finn as lovers. They were always just friends to me. Daisy and John even explained this in interviews. Rian didn't establish Rey and Kylo. JJ already did this, even though a lot of people didn't see it, myself included.

After Luke told her Ben's story, she knew everything about him and his conflict. So, it's only logical to call him by his birth name. Especially if you want to redeem him.

She never wanted Kylo, but Ben. She closed the Falcon door on Kylo and not Ben.

 

LMAO! That's harsh!! I don't entirely disagree, but I don't know that they meant to make her look disloyal. I thought the entire scenario mad her look over confident, gullible, idealistic and a tad arrogant. Regardless, I'm glad that JJ Abrams is writing IX. I found his version of Rey much more likeable than RJ's version of her. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be glad about anything Abrams is doing until I read IX spoilers and hear from people who have seen the movie?

 

I know, I know. I personally feel the story of Rey and Ben is the better one, but I was just indulging other people’s feel about it and to be fair, this trilogy could go different ways. As I said, not a bad thing.

 

And all of the above is why TLJ is a debauchery of a film and why its so rancid. Awful.

 

“Debauchery”? “Rape”?

Did we guys see the same film?

 

This could be a redemption trilogy for all I know. All I do know is that it's not a very good one. I just finished season 2 of Iron Fist. Danny Rand trying to reach his brother with words from Kun Lun made since because they have a history together. Iron Fist can stand on his own because he is his own character. He had a motivation long before his brother went bad.

The best redemption story of recent years I can think of was Winter Soldier and Infinity War. Steve Roger and Bucky share a long history. Steve trying to bring his friend back made sense, because they were friends long before they were super soldiers. Captain America can stand on his because he is his own character. His strong values sets him apart from others

Rey and Kylo have none of that. They have no history, and the idea of connecting through the force throws Rey out as an interesting character. She no longer stands on her own, because her story is intertwined with someone else's. She has no motivations of her own, so therefore she has no personality. She only exists for someone else. If Kylo was good there would be no need for Rey.

 

Bad sexual behaviour. Yeah I think that fits this film.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/debauchery

 

Never got that. What 14 year old girl would find a nine year old good looking when you got a young physically fit Jedi poncing about. It's about a story making sense. At least the act of falling in love was done as an adult and when no physical violence took place within that period of when he's good. Falling in love with a violent man a who is also a murderer. That does not make sense. All this 'torn crap is just words it doesn't sell a story. It's mindlessly dumb and worse than high school sweet hearts story. Both are equally stupid. And as much as your post is trying to belittle you do have a very valid point.

 

I don't know that "so many fans" are wanting Reylo. I have yet to meet one person in real life who thinks this is a great idea. I've also meet a few who've never heard of the concept. I work with a lady in her late 40s and I told her that this idea was floating around online. She was absolutely appalled by it. There's a big difference between the internet/Instagram/Tumblr and the real world. People can ship whoever they want, but I can honestly say that I don't understand this one and never will. No matter how many times those shippers have come after me with their torches and pitchforks and wrote paragraphs about why this is an awesome, romantic idea, I will never get it. Considering all the awful things that he has done and said to her and all the violent, volatile and yes, abusive tendencies he's repeatedly shown towards her, I don't understand how you could root for this young woman to get romantic with him.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 10, 2018 ---

I won't argue that the prequels had plenty of issues with story and quality, but I think saying that a 14 year-old Padme had the hots for a 9 year-old is a massive stretch. I don't think they were going for attraction in TPM, just setting up the Anakin/Padme relationship. At least I didn't get attraction at all in that movie. The actual attraction came 10 years later.