THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Oh tell me about it. The abuse is horrific. It doesn't matter where you go there is no safe place online to discuss about how shipping and there dark so called love stories are ruining entertainment. I genuinely hate but you can't express that. How many times I have been denigrated online is ridiculous. As you say ship what you want but when it gets flaunted in your face what do you do? The whole Rey storyline in TLJ is quite frankly embarrassing and as you say in reality you can talk about it a lot more favourably about not liking it and understandingly without being castigated and scared for not liking something. Nobody acts like that in real life. It detracts from the film and you just cannot enjoy watching in. I mean I still remember parents ripping the kids out of the cinema with the torture scene and now it's the beginning of love story. Very strange direction to go in. I can't see any justification for it at all.

As I said before ship what you like. Am not into Reylo

 

Anakin had the hots for Amidala, which was why he asked “are you an angel?”

 

I'm not convinced that they'll actually go through with a Rey/Kylo romance. However, the very idea of it is the main reason I will be checking IX spoilers before I ever buy a ticket to the theatre. I will not watch that.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 10, 2018 ---

The "hots?" This was a little boy complimenting a girl he found pretty. Padme befriended him and was later concerned over him leaving his mother. Maybe I'm interpreting some of these posts wrong, but attempting to sexualize interaction between children is disturbing. Yes, I know Anakin thought about her a lot for 10 years, but their relationship didn't turn into attraction or hotness until a decade later, when it was more age appropriate.

 

Christmas is such an expensive time of year. As you say you have to keep an eye on rumours otherwise you could end up throwing money down the drain. I know I did with TLJ. Never again.

 

Yep, exactly. And I certainly won't trust the critics and will wait for real people to see it and give feedback. Plus, it's cold in December where I live. I'm not dragging my butt out into the cold for another letdown like TLJ!

 

You cannot discuss something that isn’t an issue. There was no debauchery or rape in this film.

 

There wasn't. An actual one.
But the thing is, imo, that we can only aknowledge that people may react very differently to that scene.

Personally, watching and hearing a man saying to a woman chained in a chair "I can get from you what I want" even tho I know that
he's speaking about whatever is inside her mind... that gives me the vibe not of an actual rape, not of a mind rape, but that of a menace of a rape.
This double meaning in a children movie it's the more I can get.
And to me, that is enough.
I don't need to hear or see nothing more.
It gives me shivers... in a very bad way.
I believe that in real life that kind of manace is what any sane woman would get.
And I don't care if that is fiction.
Because fiction may tell one story or another.
and if you want to use/build up the trope "from enemies to lovers" that is not the best way to do that.
As it's not, making the very same guy killing in cold blood his father while the lady is watching in terror.
If you do that... then you cannot be surprised if some will never get on board of that... ship.

Agree. Especially if we compare that scene to the interrogation of Poe.
The point wasn't - imo - that Kylo is more "kind" with Rey.
But to enstabish first Kylo's skills and then - by comparison - those of Rey, adding a bit of drama meanwhile.

First you have Poe. And his attitude is to challenge Kylo. In his own words he doesn't want to look - and he doesn't look - intimidated.
But he fails.
Then you have Rey: and she's afraid. She's is not only in the interrogartion room - at the start of it - but in Takodana too.
If you compare the sequences since the beginning - since the FO arrival on Yakku and on Takodana - she's always scared
(looking at the ship landing, shooting at the stormtroopers, etc..) whereas Poe may be rushed but he is also... focused.
And that is why you have almost identical shoots. To show this difference.

And the mask serves the same purpose.
I mean... Poe makes fun of it. Again: he wants to be the cool guy that doesn't look intimideted.
And coolest thing Kylo may do, it's to ignore the joke. His silence is equal to him saying "Say what you want. I don't give a **** "
Rey is scared by the mask. And the coolest thing Kylo can do - the most intimidating, not the most kind - is showing her
that the scary thing is not the mask, but him, his power... regardless the mask.

But all of a sudden, this girl prevails.

I don't think Finn was the catalyst. I think he was pivotal: the co-protagonist. And I loved his character and his journey in TFA
(and I still think TLJ doesn't work as a progression but as a less interesting reboot of his arc in TFA). About the rest... agree.
Not only because my take on that scene is the one above, but because it's pretty obvious according to basic writing rules that the scenes
meant to work as catalyst were: the lightsaber calling to Rey and her visions scene.

We were lead to believe they meant something becuase that is how storywise works.

For instance, and for those familiar with ASOIAF serie or GOT, I fully expect that Daenerys visions
in the House of The Undaying are there to meant something.
Some of them already did as the serie went on, others are yet to be explained.
I have my theories, I may be wrong, but above all I want answers that make sense... if GRRM will
ever finish his work.
But up until now, that's the pattern.
He established a pact with his audience in book #2 and the novels that came next, were loyal to that pact.
He may subvert my expectations, giving answers I didn't think about or painfull (as it was the Red Wedding)... but there are answers.

And it's not that I believed Rey was Luke's or Leia's daughter (I 80% did not) so I am disappointed.
It's not that I woudn't love her to be un-related.
But you have to take that thread (the visions, the lightsaber, her superpower) and atcually care of giving an answer.
Answers more deep that - just to say - the force-downloand... given in the novelization of the movie.

Instead, we've got a movie that feels more like a reboot than a sequel, because
the main inspiration of RJ was that interrogation scene... almost took in a vacuum.

Or at least that is how I perceive TLJ in comparison.
Even the tone is different, but not because it's darker. That's not the problem/point.
But because it feels like Twilight and I wasn't watching Twilight the first time around.

This.
As said, to me the main problem is that I didn't get the chance to see how Kylo's minds works.
Again: ok, Luke tried to kill him.
But why did he kill Han, a father that - as he says - he didn't hate?
There's not answer about... that. Did he kill Han because Luke tried to kill him? I don't think it works.
I don't think is an aswer. But trying to avoid an answer to the true question: why did you kill Han?

And if we keep in mind the movies only - I mean if we do not rely on novels etc.. as we should judging a/two movie/s -
then we know nothing about the Solo family.
We know nothing about how, when and why Snoke was capable to "influence" Ben/Kylo.
And above all, we don't know why Ben/Kylo wants not only revange vs his family, but the FO to rule the galaxy.

The "incident" is not an answer for all those questions, to me. So I don't understand his journey and
I can't take why - I can only make assumptions - he decides to kill Snoke and take his place.

Therefore, I can't understand at all Rey's reaction.
Sure she may be sympathetic about that (the incident) and mistrust Luke.
But is that enough to trust or even care "that" much about Kylo? Not sorry: Ben. He's Ben now.

Why does she give a f**** about all the Skywalker family? It's not her business.

I can see her saying "Ok lads, you cleary have your own sh**** to fix up.
And if I really have to help someone instead of going back to Yakku or to the most beatiful planet
in the Galaxy to live an happy life, if I really have to, then maybe I'll go back to Leia.
At least she deserves something."

I can even see Rey and Leia having a conversation like: " You know what? Your son and your brother are two iditios"
"You're right. F**** them both. Let's save this galaxy with those we have"
This would have been a far more compelling version of "girl power", without any need of Holdo, Rose's embarassing words etc...

And while these two take care of the resistance, the two idiots butt their heads. Very much like they did (of course in my version
Luke understands that just because he made a mistake, it's his duty trying to fix it, for her sister, her best friend, his guilty and the seak of galaxy too).

 

*About my rating “old new” in my previous post:

Who is really the bearer of old news here? Whoever introduced the preposterous subject of debauchery and rape in TLJ or someone like me simply highlighting such a non sequitur?

Using the rating system in this manner just makes a mockery out of it, just saying.

 

I understand someone disliking an undertone suggested, no matter how slightly, in a film or a book. After all everybody is different and processes things in different ways. In modern literary criticism it is not uncommon to pick up subtext elements from the page and discuss them. That’s ok. What I find less understandable is people taking the high moral ground and preaching about it, as if an immoral subtext, intentional or unintentional, is some sort of aberration, particularly for the young. Much more when we don’t demand the same standards from other texts... Low moral behaviour (textual and subtextual) is not infrequent in well established literary heroes. Apart from biblical figures, Mr Rochester in Jane Eyre and Ross Poldark come to mind (Jane Eyre is a favourite in school reading lists. So is the bible in Christian institutions). Films or books are not there to raise your kids. Parents and schools are who do That instead, teaching kids HOW to read books and view films.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 10, 2018 ---

Killing Han was a step set by Snoke to complete his training. Kylo acts possessed by a fundamentalist desire to root himself more in the dark side and follow the steps of his hero Darth Vader. The act however does not have the desired effect on him.

We know that Snoke has influenced him greatly. In TFA Leia mentions it and Lot sen Tekka says his origins are not in the dark side.

In TLJ you are led by several incidents (Snoke dissing Kylo and kylo retaliating with anger, Kylo being unable to kill his mother, kylo saying “let the past die”, “let old things die”) to believe that Kylo has outgrown Snoke and his influence, but not necessarily to embrace the light. He was counting with Rey to become his ally in the dark/FO, but she refused. This set him back, as well as the confrontation with Luke, who made him realise the fight against the light is not over.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2018 ---

What happened in the Jedi hut with Luke and kylo made her think that Kylo fall to the dark was somewhat precipitated by events and that there is a chance for kylo to be turned and switch sides. She says this to Luke during their fight in the rain. Rey thinks Kylo/Ben will help them to defeat the first order. That’s why she is so eager. She also feels the conflict in him, the good in him, tries to convince him of doing the right thing: “It’s not too late.”
He calls him “Ben” intentionally, addressing the son of Han and Leia, not unlike Lor sen Tekka did alluding to his origin (Check the look of bewilderment of Adam driver’s when she does so, lol. Kylo Ren was not expecting such familiarity either)

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 10, 2018 ---

“The resistance sent me”, “your sister Leia sent me”. It’s in the film.
Rey is doing Leia’s bidding in acht too. That’s clear.
Apart from the fact that she “needs someone to show her her place in all this.”

Your girl power story ( told in jest, i get it ) overlooks the fact that there are male characters in the story who need to do some heroics too... many feel threatened with the film the way it is, imagine if we were to go full stereotype and have these two male characters “butting their heads”... not a goer.

 

This character has been suggested rather than spelt out. Whether we like it or not the audience has to piece together the information given and Adam Driver’s acting to make sense of this character. Some people find this process more satisfying than others and some people can deal with the ambiguity better than others.

I think probably what many are finding more unsettling is that we actually don’t know for sure if there is enough good or even any good in Kylo... There are conflict signs, confusion, attachments, but do they ultimately mean there is a chance for him to embrace the light? Is his anger a defining factor or something he could temper with the right approach?

As I said before, this story has not been told yet. These answers will probably be given in ix... or in another trilogy, depending how JJ and Terio want to use this character in ix. I find this uncertainty most exciting.

 

I think something that's sometimes forgotten is that same excitement existed in Rey after TFA (I'm talking about creating head canon about who she is and what her role is moving forward). Many teasers suggested something juicy lurked and went unspoken and we were in for a big reveal of some kind in TLJ. The fact that it was an empty mystery box lends that Kylo could very well suffer the same fate. Or, at the very least, could be just as unsatisfying. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that Rey is not born a Skywalker or another bloodline, but the whole Force download I find very unimaginative and hard to accept as anything but lazy writing. If that's how they wrote Rey, if that was all the imaginative power they can muster to put into the main character of this story, then I can't imagine roughly the same story group will come up with anything any more satisfying for Kylo. Maybe I simply don't share your optimism about the creative power of this team anymore. I don't see myself as a pessimist, just a realist based on what we've been given so far.

 

That was not in the films. I wouldn’t base my hypothesis on that.

 

But it's canon. And it hasn't been overruled or overwritten yet.

Until Episode 9 says otherwise, this is the only explanation we have, no matter how much anyone doesn't like it (and believe me, I certainly don't).

 

As @Darth_Nobunaga says, it is canon. Any discussion or theory moving forward has to assume that's the case. I very much hope JJ changes that, it would make the ST much more appealing, but as of now, force downloads are a thing in SW. So yeah, basing a hypothesis on that right now is a must. I genuinely hope someone visits this after EPIX and tells me "See, this wasn't fact. You were mislead by a writer who took liberties." I really truly hope so, but as of right now, this is the SW world we live in, a world with Force downloads (I wonder if there are risks to getting viruses in doing that lol).

 

"OH Boy Pluto" quote the mouse never more! So I come and read this thread because its always in the hot seat. I chuckle a lot.

Ok I totally understand you are crazy passionate about your hatred for this movie.

Some things to point out. This is not a love story. No Rey/Kylo or Rey/Finn. Why would even want that. Seen the Twilight had enough. Rey is connected to Kylo because of the force. She sees saving him as something to give her meaning. She was a dirt farmer, who abandoned by life. People matter to her it is a simple story, lonely kid wants friends. She views Finn as a brother, someone to ground and guide her. Which I think is fine. Not every boy and girl team in the universe need to fall in love. She is one with force because the force doesn't care who you family is it cares who you are. If the Skywalkers were the only force users in the galaxy we would be watching a family feud. She it doesn't matter if Luke is her dad, if that is the case Luke is Broom boys dad.

Finn is a great character, I am still trying to figure out why people think he is not good enough until he is a Jedi. Chewie is not a Jedi, people love him. I like Finn he has his own stuff to deal with. He left the FO to become his own strong man. He is important to the Resistance, could be more important overall then Rey. She is after one person he is after whole group. He and Rose can become a couple or not, I don't care. It doesn't change how important he is. Him and Poe together would be a great team the FO would have a hard time dealing with.

Kylo sees there is conflict in Rey, so he has a connection that Luke, Leia or Han cant give him. He is always battling himself. He wants to be good or his perception of good. He feels rejected by his family. So if he can set his order to the galaxy then he has to be loved. He is a little boy who wants his mommy. So through power he believes he is redeeming himself. He wants Rey to understand and justify he actions. That's all. Please someone tell its okay that I did all this bad stuff because the great good. Cheer for me. Somebody just love me.

There are things that I hate about this movie. None are strong enough to think or want SW to fail. Hate the pod racing, good god hated it. It has its place. May not like but its there and I have moved on.

 

I’m particularly not very interested in the specifics of how Rey acquires her power in the same way I wasn’t when Luke acquired his. The novelisation of both films in the ST cared to describe that process to those who want to make sense out of it a bit better. The extracts about these phenomenon are quoted below.

In TFA novelisation:
"Even as he [Kylo] callously rifled through her mind, he had somehow revealed his own. Rey found herself in his mind even as he invaded hers.”

In TLJ novelisation:
"Kylo had retreated at finding Rey in his head - had practically fled from her. But that had not been the end of that strange, sudden connection. She had seen more - far more. Somehow, almost instinctually, she knew how he accessed some of the powers at his commend - even though she didn't understand them. It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind"

I do not really see what is so bad about this. Basically the authors are explaining the process of learning the ways of the force during mind connections... It seems pretty natural to me. Obviously acquiring power in the force is a mental process, fairly intuitive too, much like learning a language... It also makes sense that this process occurs when two minds merge. The idea of openind doors in one’s mind is quite powerful and does not mirror at all this “force download” everyone talks so much about. To me, who doesn’t give this the importance others give it, the explanations in both book are perfectly elegant.

I feel people are making too much of a huge deal about this. Also this obsession of calling it “the force download” is just facetious and designed to make it sound ridiculous.. what unfortunately influences the opinion of others who have not read these passages and take what others say at face value without checking the evidence by themselves.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 10, 2018 ---

I actually like this quite a lot. Associating Kylo’s interest in power and in ruling the galaxy with Leia’s well known interest in diplomacy and leadership is actually quite interesting, I think.

 

In all honesty, politely, it demeans the Force (yes, a fantasy power in a fictional world, but one that drives the story, something viewers have to buy into to suspend their disbelief). I've written and deleted paragraph upon paragraph explaining why, but if you don't see it, no amount of explaining will get you to understand. If you and others like it, I'm happy for you. For myself and others, it lessens every story told moving forward and every story told before, and that could be told of the past, present and future within the SW universe.

 

Clearly, you're not as crazy as I thought. This is an awesome, fair and well articulated post! I completely agree with just about everything you said and I like that you are looking at the movie with a level-headed, common sense approach.

I don't think that most of us still hanging around here who didn't like TLJ want SW to fail either. Personally speaking, I just don't want walk out of a SW movie with that deflated and disappointed feeling that I had after TLJ. I also don't think that those of us still here are the over the top drama queens who are screaming about how TLJ ruined our childhoods and lives and want Lucasfilm to go bankrupt and all their employees to jump off a cliff. Yeah, I know there are some folks out there who are way over the top on this subject! I'm still holding out hope that I enjoy Ep. IX, though I will be very cautious before buying a ticket. As much as I detested TLJ, I did go see Solo and thought it was fun and entertaining. Not mind blowing by any means, but entertaining and I certainly didn't walk out of it disappointed like I did with TLJ.