THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Agree with thinking about Rey, but that still is way too big to ignore. This story could have been a 9 or 10 for that matter, but RJ chose to settle for a 4. Anytime the story had a chance to go deeper it chose to remain shallow. I believe it still should have been mentioned. If not with Finn then within the Resistance. To have a mother and son on opposite sides in a war is fascinating, but it's treated like nothing.

 

This is a GREAT point.

Honestly Leia making the case for the Resistance (even if she doesn't do it directly, even if she isn't actively recruiting Finn but kinda makes the case through her actions, her convictions, and her ideas) would have been MUCH more meaningful, relevant, and plausible than some wild goose chase on a planet with Wealthy space aliens and stampeding Wolf-Donkeys.

But I think folks already know that I believe Cantonica was a planet that Rian was interested in creating, moreso than he was interested in creating as a place for Finn's arc to take place. It would not surprise me at all if Rian conceptualized a "Casino Planet" long before he figured out that Finn would be there or what he would be doing.

 

This is actually a very good point. Those two characters certainly have things to say to each other... I'd like to see that. At the moment they are playing it as if Kylo is not Ben. As if Ben were dead.

 

I posted this in the Aya thread, but am curious what others who hated the movie think.

Basically, I stumbled across this recently (not even sure how)-


https://swshadowcouncil.com/the-tlj-case-for-rey-skywalker/




Anyway, I liked the idea so much it actually prompted me to watch TLJ for the first time since the theater. I'll say this- Rey being Luke's thought dead daughter (or somehow important to him) really makes TLJ more enjoyable. At least the Luke part...because it helps explain Luke's behavior in my opinion.


This theory, or something similar, sure helps explain Luke's behavior in TLJ. It makes sense that he is rude to Rey because a) he won't let himself believe she is his daughter, since he thinks that's impossible and/or b) he is trying to protect her by completely rejecting her.

Also, if Luke had learned (either through sensing, visions, or straight up searching his room lol) that Ben had already turned, and had done some terrible things already, including wiping out a village where his wife (or old friend) and daughter (or old friend's daughter) had been killed...that makes him igniting his saber far more believable. Not only does he sense the growing evil in Ben, sees visions of his future deeds, but realized he was already too far gone...AND had wiped out everything he loved? He ignites the saber, compassion takes over, thinks of Leia, and ultimately spares him....that is the Luke we know.

It also explains why some students joined Ben at this point...he had already been staging a revolt, so to speak. It wouldn't make sense if Ben came out of his hut, said "Hey unlce Luke just tried to kill me, you with me or him??" and then the students essentially split in half and pick sides? Makes no sense.

But if some were already working with Ben, including wiping out a village even years ago, it makes sense that once the hut blew up...they help him wipe out the others.



At this point, I am very jaded and I don't think they put this much thought into the ST. I think Disney essentially rushed the creative team, so I doubt there is a well thought out story to explain these things

BUT

I hope this, or something similar, turns out true. Because it helps explain so many issues (Luke's behavior, Han's reaction to Rey, Leia's reaction to Rey, Rey and Kylo's connection, why some of Luke's students would just up an join Kylo, Rey's similarity to Luke and Annakin, on and on).

Most importantly for me, it explains Luke more. Him just giving up because his nephew turned and his students died just doesn't seem like enough. Him losing his wife, daughter AND then losing his students, realizing Kylo is already gone, etc...it makes more sense. Give it more weight.

And if you watch TLJ thinking Luke is trying to save Rey by pushing her away...it helps that movie a lot. It makes Rey and Luke's part of TLJ a lot better, and helps that part of the story make much more sense.


Unfortunately, it doesn't explain why Poe doesn't call someone for help rather than Maz. Or why Maz didn't send help when she was able. Nor does it explain why Poe would send Finn and a mechanic on the most important mission in the history of the galaxy at that point. Or why they wouldn't just go somewhere for help, rather than the casino planet. Or why Finn and Rose would suddenly give up on finding the code breaker, just because some dude with an odd stutter said he could do it. Or why Holdo wouldn't just tell everyone the plan. Or why Holdo is dressed for prom. Or why Poe doesn't know Holdo, even though the Resistance is small. Or why the FO just doesn't light speed in front of the resistance and get it over with. Or why the Resistance just doesn't split up and make the FO pick a ship to track. Or....yeah "plot B" in that movie is awful. Just terrible.

 

I answered in the Aya thread, but I'll continue here since I think this different line of thought is more appropriately discussed here.

It's a tricky idea that would need to be executed perfectly. Even then, it would challenge the fandom and could very well backfire.

Here's my thought.

Let's assume the fandom is split 50/50 after TLJ (a big assumption, but the numbers are just easier to work with, modify them to your view as you will). That would mean at it's peak, all fans agreeing, TFA is the ceiling. So, 2.1 billion in revenue. Sequels always make less then the first episode, but assume some "haters" went in too, thus accounting for the 1.3 billion. That would give lovers, the current hardest core fans, about a revenue ceiling of slightly over 1 billion. Assuming new fans will keep coming it could grow from there. Not a bad starting point for LFL and Disney to start to rebuild from.

However, this idea has a pretty big risk attached to it. If the lovers feel betrayed, and the haters don't come back, it could be disastrous to the franchise. Now, if this was part of the plan all along, it should be easier to execute. If this is an attempt to retcon or back pedal on ideas, it will likely leave holes and could be harder for either side of the fandom to accept.

I think SW fans want to love SW, so I think there's more to gain than to lose, but I also think the risk is significant. My take on the atmosphere around the SW product has polarized in many ways. A lover could quickly become a hater if they feel betrayed and made a fool of for standing up to the haters and then being proven wrong. Some haters will feel it's not enough, as you pointed out in your last paragraph. So it's very tricky, and depending on the data that Disney has on the fan divide, may or may not be a worthwhile risk to take.

Now if this was designed this way from the beginning, maybe there are hints in the first 2 movies that weren't understood. If that's the case, they should absolutely go forward and tell their story as intended. If this is an attempt to reunite the fans by manipulating the story after the fact, their path isn't so clear. The potential for a larger backlash exists.

For myself, I like the idea and I want to love SW. I would welcome the attempt and try with all my heart to love the product, but it would have to be done masterfully. It's a tight and hard line for JJ to tread. My guess is because of that and the risk involved, this won't be what we'll get in IX. The only way I see this happening is if this was the plan all along.

Edit: Another issue would be incorporating this in a single film. Bringing in the new ideas and resolving the conflicts. I think it's doable, but every scene would have to hit the audience on the chin. Which would of course make for an amazing movie, but a difficult one to make. If this is the case, IX could very well be the defining movie of JJ Abrams career.

 

I thought it was a decent Star Wars movie (although I don't take it too seriously as the ST isn't part of my head canon), but for me the worst part of the movie was Holdo. I thought everything about her, from the casting to the purple hair and her subplot, was awful.

 

'as intended' will be the only line you ever hear coming from LF or JJ.

nobody will ever convince me that the entire trilogy wasn't mapped out at the beginning by JJ & Kasdan. I also believe that JJ (Director/Producer of TFA, executive producer of TLJ and Director/Producer of ep IX) is one of the few people on this planet that would have the kahunas to risk upsetting millions of Star Wars fans for the sake of a few surprises.

the trilogy 'coming back' towards those fans upset in ep9 would not surprise me.. and i'd be less surprised to know that JJ wanted it that way.
the guy is ballsy

it's a fascinating theory about Rey Skywalker. I do like twists & surprises.. so i'm not fussed whichever way things go.

I would also like the thousands of credits i lost in wagers back if this were to happen... as i lost a fortune betting that the girl was Luke's daughter lol

 

Fair points for sure.

I think that one of my frustrations with the TLJ (there are many), is that it feels so disconnected from TFA. And I wasn't crazy about TFA, but it at least put forth questions at the very least. It gave the impression that there was a plan- something thought out in advance.

Most of that feeling came from the Rey mystery, why Luke left, and the force vision/flashback. Add to this how secretive they have been about what Luke did between ROTJ and TFA.

I think another reason I like this Rey Skywalker (or Rey is someone important to Luke in some way) theory is that it gives the feeling there was a plan again. That there is more to the story, more to explain.


However, when I think of a way this can be revealed, I can't come up with anything other than ghost Luke telling her...or maybe the mirror mirror on the wall. I'm not a writer of course, so I imagine there is a cool way.


** I thought of something else I like about this theory/idea. When audiences left ESB, they thought Vader was lying. Turns out he wasn't. Another way to separate the ST from the OT, is have the second chapter reveal be a lie...or at least not completely accurate. **

Here's the other thing- if there isn't more to the story, more to peel back, what is the story of 9?? Rey has already defeated Kylo, who defeated Snoke. Assuming what Kylo told her is true, she knows her history. They don't seem particularly interested in developing Finn.

So...9 will just be a straight forward film about the good guys figuring out a way to beat the bad guys? Another super weapon? Why have Luke come back at all, just to haunt Kylo?

The story of 9 can't really be Kylo redemption to defeat the big bad- he already did. He IS the big bad.

I just don't see an interesting way they can take this, unless there is more to learn. I am absolutely 100% disgusted by the Reylo thing for a variety of reasons.


As far as financially? I think this film will be successful either way. I think JJ is a great salesman- and I believe the trailers will be amazing, no matter what. Plus it will be billed as "the end"

If they went this route, they would be okay I think. In my opinion, a lot of TLJ lovers would love anything Star Wars. I'm sorry, but if you can accept what happens in the B plot of this movie, you will like anything with Star Wars on it. You literally have to turn your brain off to make the Poe/Finn/Rose stuff work. It is objectively bad film making.

Also, they would have the Rian trilogy to look forward to, and it isn't like TLJ would cease to exist. I think the link I posted breaks down how it can put the theme of TLJ in a new light, but its basically the same. The theme is still "it doesn't matter where you came from"...That's why I like this idea so much. The basic theme and message of TLJ are still there, it just helps Luke's behavior make more sense...AND helps answer some questions posed in TFA.

Rey would still be a nobody, someone who found her path on her own. Someone not burdened by family legacy. Its just that she would be a nobody who wasn't meant to be a nobody. And, again, it would explain Luke.

Maybe some would feel tricked. But to this point, we have all been tricked. Rey grew up on a desert planet, a great mechanic, apparently a great pilot, and looks like Natalie Portman. Her family history was sold as a huge mystery, with some hints in TFA that people had ideas ("What girl!?!?!" "Who's the girl?" etc).

Hell the finale of TLJ (which, I actually liked honestly- I thought the force projection was an original and creative way to show Luke as a badass)...was a trick!



The only thing it really "kills" is Reylo, and good riddance.

 

You are free to believe what you want, but the above belief has been directly contradicted many times in various statements from Kennedy and Johnson regarding Johnson's creative freedom with E8 (not to mention how disjointed E8 is when compared to E7).

With all due respect, I have to strongly disagree.

Let the record show that I like JJ Abrams. I am a big fan of JJ Abrams. I am extremely happy he is at the helm for E9 and I wish he had done E8. I thoroughly enjoyed his Star Trek movies. I thoroughly enjoyed Super 8. I thoroughly enjoyed E7. I thoroughly enjoyed MI3. But fact is that these are not movies that took huge risks or strayed at all from what the fans expected going in. His work is so derivative of other works that it walks the fine line between homage and plagiarism. Of the 6 movies he has director credit on, 5 of them were pre-existing properties.

Let's call him what he is: He is a guy who does fantastic work, but he is not a guy who is going out there and redefining the genre.

 

you are absolutely correct, it is purely a personal belief of mine that does indeed contradict statements from KK and RJ.

If they were giving free reign to their directors, then they wouldn’t be replacing so many because of creative differences.. if they have full creative control.

But that’s just my humble opinion @Wolfpack

 

But they're not lovers in a relationship, they're (connected) warriors on opposing sides of a war.
And Rey is no "battered woman", they're clearly each others equal and it's Rey who bests Kylo at every turn.

"Anger ... aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."

*citation needed!

 

That's what the Jedi say, though.... but I don't think the Jedi are right there.

Rey is capable of aggression, particularly in self defence, and may not be all that terrified of the dark, but her sense of right and wrong is not askew unlike Kylo's, (at least so far). Rejecting Kylo's proposal to rule the galaxy and let old things die told us as much.

 

Connected warriors on paper.
Not much in the movie to prove this.
Rey's behavior is of a battered woman. Going back to the person who took her away, and believing in him more than herself is the defintion of a battered woman.

You won't get a citation on that. However if you know American history the way I do his actions stick out like a big sore thumb.
Tell you what. Speak to people that aren't influenced by western ideals and I'll bet you will hear something different.

 

Did anyone let Rian know? Cause I'm not really getting a strong "warriors on opposing sides" vibe from this.

 

Mmm what do you call a person who “goes back” to the person who chopped his hand and left him hanging from a space ship’s end?

Luke Skywalker.

Rey is NOTHING like a battered woman. She defeated Kylo twice in TFA. She is not “going back” to anyone, because she “wasn’t with” anyone in the first place. She tries to help the resistance by encouraging Kylo, her seemingly repentant enemy, to turn to her side.

The shoe doesn’t fit. Sorry.

 

*sorry, couldn't find a gif in a better quality*

I mean, sure, Rey cares for Kylo, maybe even in a romantic way, but the way TLJ wraps up is VERY far away from a romantic relationship. Also, I don't think calling anyone, especially a person you want to date, a "nobody," is ever a wise move.

 

Rian is creating physical tension between them. I personally thought it was genius.

 

The idea of Rey seeing possible romance with Kylo is baffling. I would seriously lose all respect for the character if that is something she is thinking of pursuing. She saw the guy kill his father. She saw the guy almost kill her friend, but I guess she was thinking how hot Kylo looked killing people. Yeah. That's the story I want to see.

 

In all fairness, that "person" was his father. Its a different context and relationship than two strangers. If rey and kylo were blood related, I could stomach her new obsession with "helping" him after what he's done to her and others.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 20, 2018 ---

I'd always thought these interactions created physical tension between them.






I'd always saw the hand touching scene as a metaphor for a sex scene. RJ seemed to confirm this when he said it was the closest to a love scene in star wars that we'd ever get.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2018 ---

The week of the release, I was in a state of shellshock. I just couldn't believe some of the stuff that happened. When i first heard about force ghosts fighting, i thought "lol someone's trolling, this stuff his hilarious. There's no way this type of garbage actually happens." . People were talking about "superman leia" and i just keeled over laughing. Until the horror of it all struck me. Star wars was a big part of my holiday season, so the double wammy of the battlefront 2 debacle and TLJ, all but destroyed the holidays for that year. This really is the dark timeline.

 

Man, I wanted to find a reason to give EA my money, but the news was so bad that I just couldn't do it. It's crazy when you want to give your money away, and a company can't even appreciate that.