THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Calling someone racist or sexist isn't an insult when they are (See people compling about Finn in Episode 7 when we had a black storm trooper) Doesn't mean that other words still hurts someone when they get called shill, ect. Don't you think being called a "shill" is just as hurtful to someone who legitimately likes a product? Or claming that they are getting paid buy Disney but don't receive any money for it? (Where is the link to sign up at?)But there is a portion of the fandom that is sexist, racist, etc land they are being the loudest and they overshadow the ones who have legit criticisms. There's no harm in calling out a group of people who are the loudest. If you feel offended than I guess the shoe fits where it belongs. I never once felt offended and I couldn't care less, it doesn't effect me. I didn't detect a single political motive in TLJ when I watched the movie 2 times in theaters. It wasn't until I read stuff online that mentioned it. (i'm not here to debate about that, because there are various interpretations and it's already been beaten to death).

Respect is a two way street and I never felt like they disrespected the fandom and I never once felt disrespected by them. For the ones that did, maybe they should learn how to separate fictional stories from real life and or re-evaluate their life because they might release a truth that they didn't want to accept. People don't like to hear the truth. Their not going to apologize to the community on what they did to Luke. It was Rian's vision of SW and whither you agree with it or not, it doesn't matter. You didn't write the story and you didn't direct it and your vision and interpretation isn't a universal truth. The apology that people are claiming that they want is no different than requesting George to apologize for the PT and or making it where Han shot first. He and Disney don't owe us any apology and they shouldn't.

I don't buy your explanation for that scene. Are you certain about that or making it up to justify that plot hole? Did a book tell you? Did any scene or dialogue in ESB or ROTJ explained it? Doesn't those questions sound pretty familiar with TLJ? But yet when we do the exact same thing with few scenes in TLJ and you guys call it plot holes, lazy writing, and or brush it off saying thatch not a good enough explanation. Why do the previous 6 movies get the pass while doing that but TLJ isn't allowed to do the same thing? This is the hypocrisy that i'm talking about among the SW community

 

Lucas didn't come up with it, and that book was from a period where Lucas switched off from Star Wars and spent most of his time raising a family. He didn't have time to go through and constantly scan things written by other people.

There's all kinds of stupid EU stuff that Lucas would haven't done in the films.. remember the Sun Crusher? Plus.. didn't Disney decanonize the EU?

 

Are you sure about that? Lucas didn't come up with Coruscant either. George did a lot of stupid stuff (since most fans has gotten over it and they will eventually will with TLJ). Han no longer shooting first (which some how TLJ is more of a crime than that), adding "no" to vader when he grabbed the emperor to save Luke, Making Starkiller more powerful than Yoda, Luke and Rey combined, don't forget his Darth Icky idea, not giving fans the proper original cut of SW, etc.

Disney Nuked the old EU so that so they don't have to worry about trying to fit a story between the established stories and they can cherry pick the good parts of it and have a cohesive story as a whole. You can't have that with the old EU being an unofficial canon. Why is this such hard thing to understand? You just made a good point on why Disney needed to nuke the old EU. Sometimes you have to shoot a hostage and i'm perfectly okay loosing the handful of the good stuff in the old EU. Sure I would of loved seeing Thrawn on screen and have the ST follow the beats of the Thrawn trilogy but we are 30 years and 6 movies too late for that and that story wouldn't work with the current age of the Original 3. George missed his opportunity by doing the PT trilogy instead. Blame him for not wanting to do a proper ST because you guys were too busy harassing him, Jake Lloyd, and Ahmed Best (actor who played Jar Jar) for the PT just like how people are harassing Rian and his cast daily. Its not like Disney is tweeting every person or creating videos saying "hey you suck" or something (that's how a lot of TLJ haters are acting). The golden era for the ST has long passed way before Disney got a hold of SW. There is a limited story that you tell when the main cast of the OT are all in later 60s and 70s. Sure Disney may of told the story that you didn't like but doesn't mean that they are wrong. Of course from a certain point of view.

 

Oh i'm not blaming disney for BF2, i'm just talking about how everything that could've gone wrong that season, went wrong.

 

Dude, you should really put some space in your texts. It sounds interesting to read but I can't keep my attention on it

 

I can't edit it anymore. Guess you have to copy it in Word or something.

 

Do you really believe he would have stabbed Rey? Even if he did, do you really think she would have died?

Maybe if a ST in ANH on the DS was holding his blaster in his left hand instead of his right he would have shot Han when he was running away. It sounds like the same argument. The PG were stooges, just like the ST, I doubt anyone felt any real fear that Han was going to die in that sequence in ANH, just as no one really felt fear for Rey. In both cases they were intended as cool moments for the characters, and I would say both mostly succeeded. These are not historical events, they're stories. In that sense, the heroes won't die unless they believe it somehow makes the story better.

I did not notice that "mistake" in TLJ, and honestly, this is the first I hear of it. That said, it's such a tiny error, in such a minor moment that arguing over it seems like a waste. Rey's story wasn't done, whether that guard had a knife of a nuke, they would have found a way to survive (I'm sure there was a fridge lined with lead somewhere), just as Han and Luke would have. It's called plot armor. Though I have complaints about it in some instances, in this case I just find it such a minor issue that it's not worth bothering arguing about. Rey was not going to die from a PG. Put it this way, if Leia wasn't going to die from sudden decompression, exposure to vacuum, unconscious in the cold of space, in the middle of a war zone in space, after the meta that CF had passed and Leia's role in the rest of the movie was relatively minor... then this little Rey issue is essentially nothing.

That's my take anyways, from a pretty ardent TLJ hater. Take it for what it's worth.

Edit: Just a final thought. There are a lot of elements within this movie that I have issue with. I'll die on those hills lol. Mostly now I avoid them, agree to disagree because I don't see a benefit to keeping the argument going. I get that this movie bothered you, it did me as well, but there's nothing wrong with extending an olive branch now and then when we sheepishly realize that those we're arguing with may have a point. Yeah, it's a mistake, but in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't going to change the story regardless. Personally, I wouldn't hold such a small issue as this against anybody who liked this movie. I think sometimes you, at some point, you gotta ask yourself, why is this hill worth dying on? What's the point you're trying to make? That this movie "sucks" because of this minor issue?

 

"You guys" what are you talking about? You're throwing me in with the people who harassed those actors? All because I didn't enjoy The Last Jedi? You're just as bad as Rian with his: "90% of the people who criticize TLJ are Russian trolls" crap.

You're claiming that the "Han shot first" edit is worse than the entirety of anything wrong The Last Jedi? What?

There would be no Star Wars without Lucas, he was allowed to get one out of a hundred things wrong. Ever hear of the Despecialized editions? You don't have to watch the special or blu-ray editions.

So there's only one direction to take Luke - turn him into a selfish bum who turns on his friends.. dislikes the Jedi and tries to kill his nephew for no reason? Right...

They made the original characters into highly flawed versions of themselves in order to make Rey look better. They overpowered the force in this trilogy to make Yoda, Luke and Darth Vader's powers look weak in comparison. They've borderline ruining the magic of the original trilogy to make there's look better. That isn't good.

 

When did he say that?!

 

Don't worry, I don't think about it much, we just have new guests down here so as they want to debate and if they are polite, there is no problem with talking a little bit with them.

It is the only alive thread around here, it took the place of the Luke and Rey thread of ep VII.

And if some people think that thread is horrible, it still has a better rating than TLJ

 

I think those were all great ideas and did not ruin anything, not for me. Nothing will ever ruin the magic of the OT!

 

I wish they had a Guido face at the bottom for envious... because I'm green with envy.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 2, 2018 ---

lol, it's all good, sorry to ruin your fun. Still, after your fun of making the mice run around the maze, it's only decent to give them their cheese at the end haha.

 

Blame the toxic fandom and trolls to stop down playing people like you that have legit criticisms. It's no different that calling us Disney shrills or TLJ apologist, etc.

Source? When did he say this? I think you're getting your facts confused? Because Rian never once said that. He had plenty of civil conversations with people who legitimately dislike TLJ.

Then why did people complain about it so much? why did people create "than Shot First" T shirts and stuff?. Pre-2012 people said George Lucas killed Anikan's character. I guess that's no longer an issue any more since Disney killed Luke?? If there wasn't Disney, we wouldn't have any new SW movies or content. we would of just had TFU 3 featuring Darth Icky and the continuation of TCW. SW was slowly dying with lack or new content.

He disliked how the Jedi acted duing the PT era. They are the reason why the Empire even happened. There no wrong to admit the flaws of he past Jedi. If he couldn't save Kylo, what was he suppose to do? He quickly felt bad for his actions. I didn't know Luke was a perfect person.

Just because you didn't agree with the direction doesn't mean its wrong. I didn't agree with it but i'm not here complaining on every SW facebook and youtube post. My excitement of the ST was killed from TFA, so TLJ isn't a factor in it. The view of SW is subjective and have many interpretations, what you think is the right direction doesn't me its the truth.t here is no one set rule. Heck George didn't follow his own "rules". SW is subjective and

George did the same thing. He OP Obi-Wan force powers in PT that we didn't see before in the OT and same with Yoda. Obi-Wan was able to force run and force jump, but we didn't see Obi-Wan do any of that in ANH other than a lame twirl. Yoda received an upgrade on his force power, so how did he look weak? If anything it just a logic evolution of the force. See Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan living force comparison.

 

I don't think there is anything specific about Star Wars fans being toxic, it's just who people are in those days on social medias.

It's not only about Star Wars, it's about everything.

People are 'internetally' rude, mean and toxic.

 

It's funny. I've been called stupid on this very forum for having initially thought TLJ was good, but then changed my mind once I took off my fan boy glasses and watched the film critically. I was also told I was just following the anti-TLJ crowd for that. Somehow that behavior is okay. It's okay for the director of the film, Pablo Hidalgo and Jon Boyega to criticize fans who dislike TLJ as racist sexist jerks. But if you call the defenders of the film a shill or a Soy Boy... Wow. You are the devil incarnate.

Personally, I don't have any problem with the fans who liked the film. I simply wish I could. But it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny, at least as far as I am concerned. It is a beautifully photographed film, but get beyond that and... Rey is nothing more than an overpowered one dimensional heroine. No depth to her. Holdo, Rose... Blah and blah (I love the actresses and feel like KMT deserved to have this film written by someone who is a far better writer than Johnson).

It's funny, but the wife and I were watching Rebels this summer (we binged it) and she made the comment that a 22 minute cartoon series had far better character development than did the Last Jedi. The best part is she has an MFA in Creative Writing and thought Johnson's film was crap. Just one opinion, I know, but still interesting.

I simply hope Johnson is not allowed to do any more Star Wars films.

 

OK I can play that game too:

Calling someone a shill isn't an insult when they are.

LOL!! Anyone whose feelings are hurt by being called a shill needs to stop being such a snowflake and toughen up. Who are these people that are breaking down in tears, weeping and wailing over being called "shills"?

Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Because it sure sounds to me like a personal insult, but I know you would never do such a sleazy thing.

Yes, I am quite certain that in the scene when the Rebel transport (and 2 X-Wing escorts) escape Hoth, with cover fire provided by the ion cannon, there is only one Star Destroyer seen attempting to engage.

No, my eyes told me, having seen E5 more than once.

It doesn't need any further explanation for an astute viewer.

No, they don't.

On what planet are you living where "the previous 6 movies get a pass" for their plot holes and shortcomings?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 3, 2018 ---

What member of this forum has ever harassed Lloyd, Best or Lucas?

Either put up some names or apologize for your slander.

 

I think what is lost is that being called a shill for SW only affects and reflects on your opinion of one movie. I've never called anyone a shill (or a soy? I don't even know what that means lol), but honestly, even if someone is called a shill (I'm assuming from context it means you're paid by Disney for your opinion) it only reflects upon you in regards to SW, maybe extends to Disney or Holllywood movies. I guess at it's most extreme it could mean your opinion is open to be bought, which could be an indicator of a weak character, moral compass ect.

Being called an "ist" is a statement on a person in all walks of life. If such an accusations sticks, it has an effect on love and personal life, it effects your ability to parent and puts it into question, it affects your job and livelihood in most cases, it extends far beyond just a person's opinion of a single movie. In short, it's overkill as a response to someone disliking a movie. It's an attack on fronts that could be extremely scary to a person feeling they have to defend the accusation. It could literally be a life changer. Being called a shill, not so much. I guess I'll leave soy as TBD since I don't know it's meaning, but I imagine it's no where near as threatening as being called an "ist".

I don't think the two insults are comparable. At the same time, both insults are alike in that they are determined with minimal information to which a conclusion is quickly drawn as to dismiss the opinion as invalid based on grounds that have nothing to do with SW or TLJ. They are forms of gate keeping. Now I'm not talking about youtubers who go into specific rants that show their hand, but rather, about fans who write a few paragraphs in a SW forums (or some other form of social media)and they are labeled and dismissed thereafter.

Something lovers need to realize is that when you say something along the lines of "If you're not a "ist", you shouldn't feel offended when someone who loves TLJ says "ist" are the problem ect... " enter justification afterward. It's an attack made to quiet the opposition and make them slow down and navigate carefully or else they could wind up with the same label. It is a form of intimidation, a reminder of how close a "hater" is walking to receive that accusation. It's scary as hell, which is why I think many "haters" are not even participating in the discourse out of fear of repercussions beyond the fandom.

In short, I would never have this debate on Facebook due to that link that is made all too easily and far too casually and conveniently by many who love TLJ. It really sucks when you can't even talk about a movie without fear of such a reprisal or accusation. On facebook, no one even knows I have an opinion of any SW, in any way. I simply don't want to deal with the follow up question, what I thought about TLJ. Because for some, my opinion without any reasoning would be enough to brand me. Talk about damage to the brand.

So yes, I admit people with extreme views of the "ist" variety have seen TLJ as a platform to spread their hate. However, it's frequent use in describing haters, especially by mainstream media, has made many critics of the movie take pause and consider if entering this debate worth it, on a very personal level. That's scary feces when you stop and think about it.

 

Why can't the fandom have civil discussion? Is it that hard to do? I mean. Its just a movie.

 

It's because it's been politicized, through no fault of our own. Some "ist" idiots came out swinging, and then politics became involved and it became something bigger than SW. Some fans latched on to the political "ist" reaction and took it steps further, and/or used it for their own ends. It could even be argued that LFL did too, but that's debatable. The mud throwing escalated, dirty fighting ensued, and the American political situation adds fuel to the fire. It's sad that the SW brand is caught in the middle of it.

 

But Star Wars as always been political. It's the heart of the franchise.