THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Yes, but the political situation in America has never been so volatile. I'm Canadian, so for me I'm just an observer, but it's crazy over there. Both parties seem to feel the ends justify the means and some people get caught up in that. That's bled into the SW community, the ends justify the means. With the fandom split as haters and lovers, we sometimes get caught up in that fight and forget to call out those extremes. I can't emphasize this enough, it's not just the lovers, we've all been guilty of being silent and sometimes even defending the extremes so as not to weaken our position. As time goes on I think we're mostly becoming more sane, but how quickly things can get ugly with just a single post and we forget and fall down the same trap, forgetting our better selves in order to "win" an argument.

 

No one should think they are being called racist/sexist/bigot/etc if they are not racist/sexist/bigot etc. It’s very simple.

I like certain things about TLJ and I’m not a shill (how ridiculous!)

I don’t like certain things about TLJ and none of those make me a racist/sexist/bigot etc (as far as I know, that is).

Another thing to consider is the possibility of people displaying blind spots of unsavoury nature during discussion. I may come up with some sexist or racist remark or subtext without realising and someone may point it out. In that case, my reaction would be to self evaluate and see if I really have a blind spot or I just have been misunderstood. If the latter I’ll explain myself better. If the former I’ll just have to admit i have a blind spot to myself and be more sensitive to people’s feeling next time. It’s not such a big deal. Many people who are not racist, sexist or bigots may say something unsauvory sporadically. The important lesson for any of us to learn is to be more considerate and strenghtnen our humanitarian values. My two cents.

 

You can call me a shill if you want because I don't know what it means

 

Supposedly a "shill" is being paid to like something. I don't know what a soy means. I'm guessing it has something to do with Soy Beans?

 

The issue is America, and Star Wars is caught in the middle of it. The American way of doing films is starting to be a turn off. The vision is far too narrow and predictable. Characters are elevated while others are purposely minimized. That's not a story. That's propaganda.

 

As I said elsewhere earlier, this debate is endemic to the USA.

I've never met anyone who didn't like this movie for political reasons and none of the talks I had with friends about this movie finally lead to a political discussion.

Cinema is cinema. Politic is politic.

As stated our canadian buddy, from the outside, US politics sounds like a giant mess.

 

This. This this this this this this this. THIS.

While this is an anonymous forum and I am not worried about any real world consequences, the 2 insults are not even remotely comparable. If people I work with thought I was a Disney shill, they'd laugh. If they thought I was a racist, I would be fired because such things are not tolerated (nor should they be).

Again, this is a perfect summary of what is going on. Accusations of -ism are an attempt to not only discredit the opposition, but to silence them as well. In the vast majority of forums like this, -ist type of commentary is not allowed. So if people succeed in labelling criticism of the movie as -ist, then that criticism conveniently disappears.

 

You still didn't answer my question. why didn't they leave Hoth from the other side of the planet? Were there any Star Destroyers on the other side of the planet? Why not just leave the other side of the planet and avoid the empire all together? Doesn't that seem like a similar argument about people making fun of the chase scene in space in TLJ? Same type of argument. Also why didn't Luke and crew in ESB attack the AT-ATs from behind instead of front? Sounds like Luke doesn't know military tactics.

There plenty of stuff in TLJ that follows that same logic but you guys don't accept it. Just like the original person who I was just filling in the gaps for missing information, we can do the same thing for TLJ but the only difference we get criticized for it.

I'm not calling anyone any particular any names. I'm speaking generally from what I see across the board (FB, YouTube, twitter, video game sites, etc), not just here. All i'm saying the part of the fandom that is legitimately sexist and racist are being the loudest, while the innocent people who have legit criticisms are being over shadowed them an it's easily to paint the broad brush because they uses legit criticism that other people have and twist it that fits' their political views.

I'm talking about general, when i'm saying "you" i'm referring to haters in general, not a specific person. Because I was one of the few brave souls that defended the PT and I was called all sorts of stuff. The same people who are sending death threats and harassing his cast and crew are the same type of people who did that stuff during the PT days.

Because people complain about little details in TLJ but ignore the similar issues that was present in the previous set of movies. People are acting like the previous movies are perfect compare TLJ when they share the same flaws. I'm just tired of the hypocrisy with the SW fandom and there are tons of it on this form fromboth sides.

If someone felt like there we're personally attack, I do apologize because it wasn't my intent. I tend to base my views from across the internet not a specific website.

 

Interesting question. I have pointed out on many occasions that there are 2 diametrically opposed threads in this sub-forum: One for those who love the movie and one for those who hate the movie. For the most part, the people who hate the movie have stayed out of the "loved it" thread. But the people who loved it have spent a great deal of time in the "hated it" thread to argue, fight, and bash. This is why the "hated it" thread is about 5 times as long as the "loved it" thread. So I think the key question is why are the people who loved the movie so insecure about that enjoyment that they need to seek out people who hated it and argue?

 

I'm still trying to figure that one out too.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 3, 2018 ---

What about the people like me who's in the middle? We both don't like or hate TLJ. there is a thread for mixed feelings but it's pretty much dead. I often come on here to see other people views but there stuff that i tend disagree with or people who spread false info. There are just a lot of petty complaints in this thread that don't even effect the movie. Why don't you guys spend the same amount energy on dissecting TLJ frame by frame with other previous 6 movies?

 

To be fair, I think some genuinely want to understand the hate. In some cases I find it encouraging, because I'm assuming they must be thinking "not all these people can be racist, what are their issues..." because let's face it, those issues are not talked about in the mainstream. They're certainly not dissected. So them coming to this thread is the easiest way to get answers. In a forum like this where it's regulated by moderators, unlike more unsavory places on the net, the extremists at least have to be careful or get the boot (as they should). It's a safer way to have the conversation.

Yes, some people like to come here to argue and stir things up, but lets face, haters are not innocent in that either. I generally don't have a problem with anyone wanting to have a dialogue on it, I've had many and though it almost always ends in agreeing to disagree, I think it at least promotes some understanding. In that sense, I think this thread has been instrumental in having both sides being able to have open and frank discussions about issues that, let's face it, not every SW fan wants to get into in every thread. For the most part, we all want to talk SW, this thread specifies it to an issue many would find uncomfortable and wouldn't always want to partake in.

 

There is a thread for you too !

https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....r-those-who-feel-mixed-about-the-movie.53503/

 

I addressed that point in my original statement on the matter. Going off in another direction would have simply created the same problem, only with a different Star Destroyer. Plus you have to consider that the ion cannon is a ground based, immobile piece of equipment. If the transports wanted the support of the ion cannon, they couldn't fly halfway around the planet before heading up and out.

The AT-AT's were heavily armored. An attack from behind would have been just as useless as an attack from the front. Luke employs a fantastic military tactic in that he realized the best way to take down an AT-AT was to use the harpoon and tow cable to trip it up.

My interpretation was that comment was directed at me specifically, and I thank you for clarifying what you meant.

I just don't see how you think people ignore the flaws from the previous movies. Granted, there aren't even remotely as many flaws from E4 and there are in E8, but how much conversation has been sparked through the years over the definition of a parsec or whether or not Han shot first?

 

People n America don't forgot how to separate fiction from reality. I personally didn't get any political vibes when I saw TLJ the first 2 times in theater. It wasn't until I

read about it online did I see it. Honestly didn't like Poe getting slapped by Leia was political statement. He deserved that and if he did that in real life he would of

been Court-martial along with getting dishonorable discharge. People in America often go to the movies looking for stuff to complain about.

Like what someone above said, it's sad that SW got thrown into this mess. A lot of this political madness started while Obama was in administration, and it got even

more heated when Trump got elected. I don't recall nearly as much of this political BS before George W Bush. In America, it uses to be "Innocent until proven Guilty"

but now it's "Guilty until proven Innocent" in public eyes. There are times, where i'm ashamed to be an American and it's said that it takes a 9/11 event for a nation to

come together.

 

The fact that Poe is a man and Leia a woman is purely anecdotal to me but I don't like to see people being freely slapped, dragged to the floor or humiliated ( in a movie or elsewhere ).

That said, I couldn't care less about the genders of the protagonists.

 

They wouldn't need Ion cannon support if there are no imperials on the other side of the planet. We can't prove that though. Did we see any on screen or dialogue that stated that? How do we know that Hoth is surrounded by Star Destroyers. See you're using logic to fill in missing information just like what we can with TLJ but we get criticized for it.

Why didn't they do the harpoon and tow cable trick from behind instead of head on? Luke got one of his team mates killed for do that. he would of been alove had they attack did it from behind. Every Snowspeeder attack shown from from head on. The AT-AT head can only move what 30 degrees max?, why can't they fly higher to avoid the fire instead of flying head level?

Anytime, i'll try to word things better next time.

Not to the point where people were complaining about minor editing issues (which every movie has) and or physics of the tie bomber dropping bombs with no gravity, not to mention a space worm that lives in asteroid with no known food source that has a another living creature inside it and don't forget the size of the death star would effect the gravitational force of the planet that it's near. The point is, the complaints about TLJ are on another whole level than what i've seen from the previous movies. You got people who literally were quoting RLM as the bible and dogging PT 5 years ago, but those same people are now saying that they like PT to make their justification to make TLJ worse than it really is. Episode 1 will always be the worst SW movie (10+ years has cemented that). TLJ is far from perfect but it's mediocre at best. Episode 1 one literally changed the way we thought about Anikan Skywalker/Darth Vader, to the point where some toxic fans ruin the kids life. Who would of knowing that the best star fighter in the galaxy is limited to doing barrel rolls and who would of known that the biggest baddest foe in the galaxy hates sand.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 3, 2018 ---

That would be great and I agree to that.

 

That's a valid point, that last paragraph. I can honestly say I had to, on more than one occasion evaluate if I had such blind spots. In at least one case I can honestly say I suspected a hint of "ism" 's could have even existed, and conversations here, as well as my questioning my motivations, I believe have set me straight. I think that's the huge difference between someone who's reasonable and someone who's not, it's the ability to self reflect and evaluate your words, your opinion and your conduct. There have also been other times where I had to explain myself because I felt I was misunderstood. It's often tricky, but I can't emphasize the fear of that "ism" label enough. I would never have these discussions in an open forum where my identity was public. There seems to be very little ability to believe someone can correct themselves after a slip in our society at the moment, and to change someone's opinion after it's been formed, even if you can explain yourself, that first interpretation often works as a stamp and can't be easily forgotten. Even admitting to a possible minor error in judgment is scary without my real identity being known.

Someone at some point said "ism" 's are not afraid of the label. I think it's much more complicated than that. I never watched much Youtube before joining these forums, and some of the stuff I've seen since, against TLJ, has had me re-evaluate my opinion more than arguments for it in these very forums ever has. It's funny, but some of the bluster that goes on on Youtube backfires. Those in themselves can make a person re-evaluate their opinion and their motivations. And therein lays the complexity.

To be reasonable, you have to be open with yourself about your motivations. Which means you have to allow for the possibility that your motivations can be skewed. However, this mostly only exists if you "hate" TLJ. If you love it, it's never really questioned, thus no evaluation has to occur. Thus when accusations of "ism" 's are made, it can't do anything but put you back on your heels, even when you're certain that your motivations are "pure". You're constantly arguing from a position of defense, which is a position of weakness. That's frustrating because now you have to justify your reasoning ad nauseum, otherwise you get dismissed. I've never seen anyone put much more than a line in defense of their being a shill. It could be laughed off, being an "ism" can't.

 

This is, for me a part of the problem. I've not seen anyone say they hate TLJ for racist or sexist reasons. I've seen a lot of quality criticisms of the film from you tubers like Geeks and Gamers and even Mike Zeroh (whom I didn't even know existed until Rian Johnson bashed him). I'm sure there are those haters out there who are racist/sexist. But again I've not seen them myself. I can say, as someone who teaches in a minority-majority high school (90% hispanic) that most of my students have said they thought TLJ was not a good film. Only about 40% said it was good to okay. That mirrors the RT score in an eerie way. The teachers I know who are Star Wars fans, six people to be exact (only one of whom is white and that is me) said they didn't like it at ALL. Now I realize this is an extremely small sample size, but there you go.

As for the problems with the Empire Strikes Back, if I remember correctly Vader tells the newly promoted Admiral Piett to deploy the fleet so nothing can get off the planet and then tells General Veers to prepare his men for a ground assault. As for the rebels, they were using their shields to protect themselves, as well as the Ion cannon, so for them it makes sense to move out in the way they are moving out.

Look, at the end of the day, for better or worse, Episode VIII is a Star Wars film. I think it could have been far better had the writer spent more time learning the lore and rules of the GFFA, but I can't do anything about that. I can only hope the TV shows and Episode IX are better. If someone likes TLJ it's no sweat off my back. I wish I could like it as well. But there you go.

 

But being forced choked in front of people for defying orders is okay? Just because he's a villain doesn't change the fact that someone is being humiliated followed by death. Besides Poe being slapped is a typical movie troupe, tons of movies do the same thing but it's apparently forbidden in SW.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 3, 2018 ---

Read the comment sections of YouTube and some video game sites as well particyually read any comments on SW Facebook posts, that's where I see them. I'm sure most of them are trolling but it muddy's the water when they start mentioning the same legitimate criticisms that people have along with their sexist/racist views. It's honestly gotten to the point where it's hard to separate trolls from people with legit criticisms.