THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

It isnt Poe who would have reacted differently. It is people watching the film would react differently.

 

I agree. It would have depended on the actor but I’d say people watching the film would have read through a male version of Holdo and preempted what RJ was trying perhaps to hide: that Holdo was competent and that she was determined to save the fleet. If played by a male actor, the audience might have seen in Holdo someone like a Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide or Ramius in The Hunt for Red October, someone who seems and perhaps at times behaves like a total a-hole but who knows what he’s doing and we are going to warm up to by the end of the film... It would have been a bit predictable as we have seen a similar story a thousand times in war films.

I think that RJ wanted the audience to mistrust female Holdo, find her somewhat right in her observations yet too harsh, too virtuous, too much like “a woman trying hard to assert her authority” to be trustworthy... so that the change of heart a la Gene Hackman was more unexpected.

 

I tend to agree...however

If Holdo were a male character he would have been played by a more diminutive actor than a Hackman or Connery IMO. It's as much about appearances being deceiving. So someone like a Tim Blake Nelson, who is prone to playing villains or dimwits. Or someone completely out of left field, like Michael Cera (just an example not an endorsement) someone that would make you say "them?"

 

So here's an interesting video that, despite its somewhat click-baity title, actually presents the history of Disney and Star Wars up to its current point, and documents it from a fairly neutral and non-hyperbolic perspective. I think it's a very appropriate watch on the last day of 2018 (given that the franchise is moving into a critical year of Star Wars material) and it might give the pro-TLJ crowd that frequents this board an idea of how the anti-TLJ crowd like myself views the current status of the franchise.

 

The problem is that Holdo is not a competent leader, I can't believe you people are still debating this 1 year later on this forum.

Oh well, didn't expect much things to change. I can see you guys are still pulling the sexist card around here, defending terrible characters by saying "people would've reacted differently if it was a man". Nope, you're just repeating everything that RJ and shill media is saying. Ahsoka is one of the most beloved Star Wars characters, do you think people would've reacted differently if she was a dude? Nope, she's just a good character and people respond to that.

I'm sorry if you had the take all of what I've said, it wasn't specifically directed at you but to a great many people people.

 

You're welcome to disagree with the argument, but let's refrain from calling or implying anyone is a shill (directly or indirectly), and any other such nonsense. If you think the characters are terrible, that's fine and is a point worth discussing. But let's stick to discussing that topic, not each other.

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not pulling any sexist card. I was agreeing with @Rayjefury about Poe and simply said that a male actor playing that character might have given away the plot... I gave some examples. @RoyleRancor, however, suggested that certain male actors could have pulled the “against expectation” vibe that female Holdo has. He has a point. Holdo could have been played by a man. RJ just decided to have this character played by a woman and he had good reason to do so.

 

I think often what happens is that some people come in late to these arguments, so they haven't had the time to come to see that some of their preconceptions are false or at least doesn't apply to the vast majority and pretty much no one here. What's worse is that they've believed these preconceptions longer than we have who started these arguments over a year ago, so it'll take that much longer for them to realize that calling people an "ist" simply doesn't apply here. Haters are not innocent either of these preconceptions and then the harping on individuals seems to never abate. It has, a great deal imo, but all it takes is one person to go off on a tangent to give the illusion that as a fandom we haven't progressed.

I think parts of the fandom has progressed a great deal, those who've taken part in honest discussion with curiosity and a willingness to understand what makes others think the way they do. In this case I believe the ST does pose a resemblance to the PT, as only as time goes by will emotions of all fans come to a place of calm where we can all take part in a discussion without the emotion and passion for the love or hate of this movie or series.

Now this isn't in reference to @Kylocity, @Rayjefury, or @RoyleRancor. For the most part, especially in the last few months they among others have been able to take part in some discussion minus the posturing for causes (the movie sucks or the movie's a masterpiece). I don't think we're changing anyone's minds, but we are coming to an understanding. We're slowly but surely peeling away preconceptions both sides have had about the other. Now I still very much dislike TLJ, but by talking to some of them, even those who harbor preconceptions, sometimes I get a glimpse of their logic as to why it works for them, even if it completely doesn't for me.

But it has gotten us to a point where we can discuss whether gender played a role without people immediately jumping to false conclusions. To me, I think that right there is progress. Maybe it's sad that I get to view that as progress, but nonetheless, it's better then where we were a year ago.

I partially agree with you. I think part of RJ's strategy to make us distrust Holdo was making her female, but it went beyond that. As stated having her in non military garb was another as it triggered some who look for realism. The truth is, on a star ship chased by a superior fleet, at least in number, if the dress ever became an issue (as in hindering her mobility in a fire fight from being boarded), they were lost anyways. I still think her wearing the dress was stupid, both in film as from a creative standpoint. However I think I've always understood subconsciously that RJ's decision there had a motive. I think the hair played the same role.

RJ counted on viewers to place attributes to her based on those characteristics to mistrust her or make a judgment about her. Her actions, to my mind were the hammer, but those creative choices were the anvil. People placed their own preconceptions on those attributes without considering it within the SW universe. In a GFFA, that hair could be natural, she could be a mixed species. Maybe she was caught by surprise and the dress was all she had, and no other uniforms on the ship fit her. Ok, the last theory is a stretch, I have no explanation for that other than maybe it was a cultural or religious significance. Not all humans would share the same beliefs, morals, ideas ect... maybe the way she was raised she was to face death looking her best, courting death in her ballroom gown, as though mocking it and showing no fear. There are all sorts of valid explanations within the SW universe. We saw the reasons in our world, identity politics and such.

Now I'm not saying all criticism of Holdo is based on that, but RJ tried this hardest to set her up so that she evoked those kinds of emotions. I also don't think it's entirely honest to say he didn't have ulterior motives, that it wasn't purely for the benefit of the film. If he can make people rethink their opinion on people with colored hair or specific females in general, then I think he would have seen having those give it some thought a success.

I stated before, I just don't think TLJ was the best place to introduce this. Holdo lacked screen time to the main characters who drove the main story, and it made her look more like a token diversity cast instead of truly thought invoking. Think GI Jane, where they were able to develop the idea to the point where viewers coming from opposing sides in their beliefs were made to meet in the middle. Never was there any mention of any of the possible reasons for her seemingly illogical decisions. We were left to guess, then she died, never answering any of the guess work. Some people can see that as genius, others see it as just divisive. It never allowed fans from opposing view points to meet and achieve an understanding.

As much as Luke is my primary issues with TLJ, issues like Holdo compound it needlessly, not because of the creative differences, but because of the lack of exposition because she quite simply wasn't a big enough part of the story to mine further and RJ was short on time. Though I believe some exposition could have been cleverly added without adding any more time to the movie. By my estimation, either RJ didn't want us fans to meet in the middle on this one, he didn't care if we did or didn't, or he's so absorbed in his own views that he didn't even realize how much this would bother some people and be another wedge in the fandom. I'm honestly not sure which, and there are nuances within those possibilities. In large part, I think that's where the too PC or SJW accusations come from.

 

I agree with you on this. I myself did not find Holdo’s garb so out of place as RJ perhaps wanted me to find it... after all this is Star Wars. There is an admiral with a fish head, FFS! Why would Holdo’s purple hair and diaphanous dress surprise me? I don’t think that effort from RJ necessarily worked. I think that, perhaps, if Leia had been wearing her TFA overalls, the contrast between Holdo and everyone else would have been more pronounced. (I also felt that Leia’s grey dress aged Carrie terribly, unlike the more flattering, young looking TFA one piece... but that’s just me and indeed a very different subject).

For me, what made me distrust Holdo was her icy reaction to Poe’s words. She was right: Poe was being a bit cocky in their first encounter, but I had the feeling that in spite of everything Poe’s heart was in the right place and he was going to save the day... I was wrong and this is the reaction I suspect RJ wanted from me as a member of the audience: to put the trust in the character we know (Poe) and automatically side against this newcomer. Did RJ use, to some extent, gender prejudices found in real life workplaces in Poe/Holdo’s story? I’m sure he did, but I’m also sure he simply used them to serve and strengthen his “against expectation” plot, not to enforce some political agenda, as I hear people say quite often.

That this character was not as effective or strong as it should have been? Perhaps. I did feel this part of the film was a bit rushed yet, paradoxically, plodding during my first viewing... I felt I needed to be more invested in Holdo... Only in my second viewing I realised that Holdo was only there to serve a purpose for Poe’s arc. I don’t necessarily love this part of TLJ, but I understand the logic of it and I like it much more now than I used to.

 

Her garb wasn't even on the radar for me. I mean Amidala wore a lot of ornamental stuff in the PT but we never get the impression that she's ineffective or treasonous. If it was Rian's intent, I don't think it was a well placed effort. I thought (and still do) think Rian was going for a Bureaucrat. That's a more natural foil to the "fly boy" caricature they tried to turn Poe into.

I will still say, even if Holdo was a man, and it was heavily suggested he was a bureaucrat (leading us to believe he was simply out of his debt in strategic combat command) it is more plot driven then logic driven that he withheld information from everyone else. And anytime it's clear that the plot drives a character, it personally takes me out of the movie (which TLJ did often).

If you love TLJ you can credibly make the argument (IMO) that portraying Holdo as a Bureaucrat out of her depth in making the right combat decisions adds tension (you get the sense that she is going to get everyone killed trying to follow a strict set of protocols instead of being more reactive). But for a person like myself, who constantly asks "why did this character to this?" it doesn't work. Especially because the "AH - HA" reveal is that she isn't a Bureaucrat who is out of her depth in making the right combat decisions, she's just "more interested in protecting the light that seeming like a hero". Which is no reason to keep people in the dark, keeping people in the dark is for plot driven tension.

 

That completely escaped me but it makes sense. She just looked very elegant and (perhaps) fashionable. Whatever was intended with her costume was definitely lost on me...

Yes, I thought that was rather weak too. This kind of lapidary sentences were TLJ's downfall for me... That and the uneven humour. I think we the audience should have been left to withdraw our own conclusions about Holdo's decisions without Leia beating that drum.

 

I thought the video was well done. It brings up new information I didn’t know about. I found the video game information very intriguing. What bothers me most is the fact Disney fired all those people working for Lucas arts. Im sure all those people were able to find jobs because of their experience at Lucas arts. But it just reaffirms that big corporations don’t care about people. And they probably don’t care about why fans are upset about tlj.

I’ve watched a few other videos like this. What surprises me most, is the amount of issues. The fact that a lot of these videos are about an hour or more in run time speaks volumes.

 

I personally would have preferred the tension be the fear that there might be a traitor on board and that Holdo is making the decisions we all would make if we thought there was a traitor, even if they aggravate Poe. But then you could argue people would be upset if it was implied there was a traitor and it turns out there wasn't. I guess one way or another people would just be upset at the AH-HA moment, I just prefer one that doesn't make Holdo appear to behave overtly plot driven.

 

Interesting video. I generally shy away from YouTube videos about TLJ because majority of them are crap (on both sides) but this one is pretty neutral. One thing i'll add is that this video doesn't mention is that the production issues with SW 1313 happen long before Disney took over. They make it seem like it Disney's fault for it being canceled but in reality they just did the inevitable. That game was in production limbo long before Disney got a hold of it. Disney did the right thing and cancel it because there's no point on supporting a dying project. Not to mention LucasArts was in financial trouble during their tail end of the company and the games that they put out were pretty bad and mediocre. So I can't blame Disney for disbanding the studio for a more bigger successful publisher/studio (despite what people think of EA) when LucasArt's last great game was pre-2005. When people reminiscence of the good times with LucasArts, they are thinking of the Rogue Squadron games, KOTOR games, Battlefront games, etc. which all happened before 2005 not the Force Unleash (which had mixed reactions), Angry Birds Star Wars, Lego Star Wars, Tales of Monkey Island of their later titles.

 

Back in 2007 and 2010, I was the harshest critic of the Force Unleashed games you could ever meet. To me, it was quite literally the stupidest thing to come out of the Star Wars Expanded Universe, and to this day I routinely hack the games to shreds whenever I'm asked to weigh in on them.

But I would happily take even the worst levels of The Force Unleashed I or II over the absolute tripe being published by the likes of EA. Star Wars video games are literally in a worst state than ever, and the blame entirely rests on Disney's decision to give publishing rights to a corporate entity that even prior to 2012 was repeatedly voted as Worst Company In America.

 

That I can agree with. I can't stand the Force Unleash games. Starkiller was more OP than Luke, Yoda and Rey combined. I do agree that EA is miss handling the SW franchise when it comes to games. Unfortunately, EA is one of the few companies that can afford the SW licences just like the NFL came to them to for a exclusive football game. I do wish another developer/company can take a crack at SW games but I don't know who can though. Activision is just as toxic as EA. I originally wanted Bethesda to take a shot but they don't have the resources to budget a SW games on top of their heavy hitters and their fiasco with Fallout 76 hasn't suited well for the gamers. With that said, we still wouldn't be getting 1313 anytime soon with or without Disney's involvement.

Plus the video game industry is a lot different than they were in pre to mid 2000s. Most companies isn't mass producing dozen of titles every year like they did back in the pre 2000s. Those demo disc days has long sailed away. SW titles back then was not all AAA games, all SW games now are pretty much going to be AAA status which takes time and money. Sure we don't have tons of SW games now but I rather have little to no games than just bunch of mediocre games that I may or may not play. Battlefront II had potential to be a very good game (could of been the Battlefield 4 in SW), but EA's toxic tactics messed that up. With all the issues (from both sides) BioWare had with Mass Effect: Andromeda, I highly doubt we'll see another KOTOR game come to light. The gaming industry in general is in a weird place right now and doesn't help that next gen systems are just around the corner.

 

There is a big difference between Padme or Mom Mothma and Holdo.
Holdo is a vice admiral.
She is part of an army.
Those two were politicians, thus civilians. Civilians with power but still civilians.

Holdo is not.

That’s the issue I have with her dress.

Because if you’re part of an army you’re supposed to wear an uniform.
That is why we’ve never saw Akbar wearing a suite while commanding the fleet.

Now... one may say let’s introduce this new concept/idea that people in the army can wear
whatever they like... but if so, everyone should.

Otherwise is... privilege.

And that’s the problem.

Too many times in TLJ the intentions are x thing but the resault is y. That is why people get confused.

RJ has this idea that a woman should be allowed to express her femininity wearing the dresses she likes most
- see LD comments on this precise matter - and that a mam should not judge her (badly) because of that.

That’s the subtext of the scene of Poe seeing Holdo for the first time and saying something like “is that
really her? I was expecting someone different”.
In short he is judging the book by the cover.

And In short, that was RJ’s goal: a man is judging a woman from the way she looks. And that’s bad.
Second: women are badasses even tho they wear skirts.

RJ believes this is feminism or equality propaganda. Others “ignorants”
(sorry but I can’t find a better word) do it as well.
And because of that sone like this kind of subtext others don’t.

But the reality is - to me - that this is reactionary propaganda. Even tho RJ doesn’t know it.
I am sure he doesn’t.
And many others fail to realize it.

Because first: a woman can express her femininity regardless not by the dresses that she wears.
That’s “equality” propaganda. Not telling that she has to wear a skirt to do so.

Second, like I said, Holdo is not a civilian. She’s not a Padme. She’s an Akbar.
Therefore or you give everyone in your army the right to wear whatever he/she wants
or Holdo not wearing an uniform is only a privileged woman. A vain privileged woman.
And that’s a sexist stereotype.

Your intent is x, but in reality the resault is y.

You are trying to support progress. But you are using stereotypes.
You are sponsoring privilege, not equality.
You are sponsoring the idea that a woman should wear skirts to be considered feminine.
You are a sexist and the worst part is that you don’t even know it.

TLJ is such a movie.

 

Let me start by giving you a great big like on this post (actually I gave you a Great Post). I appreciate the well thought out analysis. That said, I will have to disagree somewhat with some of the analysis.

Let me start where I agree with you. Femininity is not singularly expressed through dress. This is a GREAT observation and is probably missed a lot in the movies because there might be men with good intentions trying to express what freedom is for a woman when they've never BEEN women. It is bound to create inconsistencies and inaccuracies because it's difficult to know what you have never lived. In the end, women are the Subject Matter Experts on what femininity is, if they are not directly involved in the writing of dialogue, wardrobe selections, and general choices, they should at least be providing oversight to avoid problems like this.

Second, if Rian was attempting to say that women's effectiveness shouldn't be judged by what she wears, it's honestly not the worst message ever. I'm not sure if it SW was the vehicle for that since, despite assertions to the latter, women characters have always been a major part of the franchise (at least from the EU perspective) and I would argue, their perceived knowledge and ability was not a function of what they wore. But perhaps his message (if it was his message) could have been for casual fans who have not followed all of SW lore. If so, let's give him credit for the idea for now.

That said, from a general perspective (historically) Rebels and Resistance have worn all manner of garb, most of it looked like military uniforms, but not always. If you watch Rogue One when Jyn Erso is being recruited, you'll see an older white men in the room wearing a civilian suit, but he is very much a part of the planning of the Rebellion. If you'd like to argue, well until there IS a Rebellion he's still a civilian... afterall Bail Organa is also in this scene and he is very much still a Senator at this point. Well then, let's look at Han, he was made a Rebel General. He never wears Rebellion garb... ever. Also specifically in the ROTJ briefing before the attack, there are people in the room (including Mon Mothma) wearing apparel that is decidedly different than the rest of the military personnel.

Further Mon Mothma at one point was a politician, she was a Senator but withdrew from the Senate at the birth of the Rebellion. She was the Rebellion's leader and, by therefore, part of the military. She was not a civilian again until she becomes the Chancellor of the New Republic. And on this fact alone, I feel Rian Johnson has the cover of precedence to dress Holdo in the garb he did. Whether it was his intent to try to elicit the response you describe could potentially be true, but he's is well within SW existing metadata with the wardrobe choice regardless. Thus (IMO) if it stood to reason that SW wasn't attempting to make a statement about femininity with Mon Mothma's apparel, it could be argued Rian wasn't making an attempt to make a statement about femininity through apparel either (unless you have a quote of him specifically saying otherwise, I honestly haven't researched that)

Think about this though: what statement do we say Rian is making with Leia's dress on Crait? The other women are still wearing military uniforms on Crait, she is not. Recall what she is wearing when Luke visits her. Is he singling out Leia to send a message here? I'm not sure he is.

In the end, I'm not defending the decision to have Holdo deliberately withhold information from Poe. If you watch the SKB planning in TFA (where everyone is involved and included on the plan) it just further illustrates how Rian (with no other justification then "my plot needs for this to happen in order to work") casts away established data points. Holdo operates in a completely counterintuitive way about planning information. It runs counter to almost every briefing we ever see in SW (ANH, ROTJ, TFA).

 

I cannot speak for RJ as I don't really know his intentions, but my understanding of this situation, once I was told that the way Holdo was dressed had some significance, was that RJ was throwing the audience a curve ball with Holdo's "ballerina" looks. He wanted her to look out of place in order to make us somewhat suspicious of her.

Looks aside, it also seems clear too me that RJ wanted to portray Poe as flawed, as a man who does not follow instructions from people in command. Like it or not RJ also gave this story a real world veneer using a woman as that person in command, making Poe perhaps more relatable, as that guy we all know (at least I do as I teach in an all boys school) who does not respond well to women telling them what to do... "Perhaps", I'm just saying. I'm not sure if this was RJ's intention. I'm just speculating.

For me the subtext with Holdo goes beyond what she is wearing. As we all know, the world is imperfect and that we people on occasion make swift and unwarranted judgements of others, women in particular, not only due to the way they dress or look, but also on elements in their character that bare little relevance to the job they have and the functions of this job, and this is the case with Poe and Holdo, so I imagine that RJ, like me, knows this and, "perhaps", alluded to this dynamic in his story... Does this knowledge or engagement with this subtext, as you call it, makes me one of your "ignorants"? I think not, but still... (No offence taken by the way, I know you don't mean it as an insult ).

As for Holdo not dressing in military gear, I honestly did not find any problem with it, as I mentioned before. Leia doesn't either, so what's the big deal? Fancy dress in the Resistance army may indicate privilege or may not... I do not see how we can assume RJ has a blindspot about feminism or privilege and is endorsing one or both in a clumsy manner just by having a female vice-admiral in a fictional fantasy army wearing a very feminine dress... What I see, however, is how our interpretation of RJ's intention defer, as i do not see him trying to portray any kind of "progressive" idea with Holdo, but merely to devise a new character and play with audiences' expectations and prejudices about this new character for plot reasons. That his intentions were, at times, a tad confusing and did not land as successfully or as widely as he may have hoped? Granted. I would not call RJ reactionary, though. Not in the least (his tweets show nothing but the opposite). I have met many reactionary people in my life and I know he is not one of them.

 

But that sort of contradicts TFA Poe who compliments Leia at the beginning of the movie, "She is royalty." And then is pretty much a loyal soldier and listens to Leia for most of the movie (So apparently he didn't have a problem with Women Authority then). He does have a 'daring side' which is referred to in the TFA Opening Crawl, so apparently Leia has no problem with that since she specifically sent him to Jakku at the start of the movie to look for the missing piece to Luke.

Again, this goes back to my conclusion that TLJ is a great standalone movie if you don't think of the 7 Saga movies before it. It has it's own narrative, sort of takes the characters wherever it wants to and doesn't really care about the previous narrative. But if you watch it as part of the Saga, it really doesn't work because there are so many contradictions with the big picture narrative.