THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I have to echo this sentiment virtually word for word. I didn't hate S8 like a lot of others, but I definitely feel the overall quality of the show went down when they ran out of source material. However, I still feel excited for their upcoming trilogy.

 

My hope is that being given a blank canvas and enough time to flesh out an end-to-end trilogy will help. The ST approach was not the way to approach a trilogy (even if JJ manages to salvage it with Episode 9 which I hope is the case). Knowing the end of the story as you write it will help ensure coherence from one episode to the next.

 

The last episode is Martin's ending. I liked the ending... it was the build up that was the problem and Martin doesn't really have a story yet. Otherwise he would have published his long delayed books. He knows where he's going, but doesn't know how to get there.

 

Mmmmm, I don't think you can make this assertion with any authority (i.e. The last episode is Martin's ending). We know that Martin gave them an outline.

For some insight read this:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/21/...-got-ending-season-8-george-rr-martin-apology

"And while Martin tried to get The Winds of Winter out before the sixth season of the show surpassed the novels, he simply couldn’t hit the deadline.
That left Benioff and Weiss in their own, uncharted waters. The show had to go on, and while they could work with Martin as much as they could, they were going to be the ones to pen the ending, especially after Martin stepped down from writing episodes of the series after season 4."

Martin was indeed having trouble wrapping up his own books (which is part of the reason why the series caught up with and passed the books) but to unilaterally call the last episode Martin's ending seems dubious.

 

Martin told them who rules in the end and what the endgame was for each character. That's an end. He hasn't worked out the details on how they get there which is completely consistent with what I said.

Some details will be different, but the broad strokes are his ending.

 

I solely think beyond this that A New Hope should've been a stand alone film. It should've been.

 

Watching this again, i've decided the biggest weakness of the movie is dialogue. So much of it is overly wordy or unnatural, and none of the actors were allowed to do much except stand and deliver it. There's a lot of static standing around while people deliver lines, they're not busy doing something while talking.. there is barely any interaction with the physical set. This entire movie could have been filmed in front of green screens and nothing much would change.

You just can't feel any of these sets outside of Canto Bight, and part of that is down to the generic "walking around" background actors who also could have been doing more interesting things. The whole movie is generic and half-assed.

No personality, no charisma.. and they tried to offset this by throwing in cutesy Dark Crystal aliens which weren't even likeable. The only cutesy things this movie had about it were porgs and Rose, which were both beyond Jar Jar level of annoying.

Practically half of the aliens in Canto Bight were blasphemous in terms of creativity, they had no Star Wars feel to them. They all looked like rejected Lucas designs which never got thrown out.

I could argue that it's a decent sci fi movie, but The Last Jedi is a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE Star Wars movie.

I just don't believe anything Luke says, he was turned into something he wasn't to make the plot work.. when the plot should have been anchored around empowering Luke again to take on The First Order with the resistance. No, instead they turned him into a loser. A huge mistake which ruined the film for so many.

Rey brings nothing to the table, her behaviour is all over the place and she literally thinks she has God mode. She rushes into every dangerous idea she has like she's in a video game, she has no concept of danger and worst of all.. she's extremely gullible.

So wait a minute, the big bad evil bad guy put your friend into a coma. But suddenly, you get horny seeing him with his top off and you take every word he says about Luke as true.

Are you kidding me? But anyway back to the dialogue..

The dialogue in TFA was punchy, meaningful and constantly drove the film. TLJ's is 60% generic waffle to fill up the page, which I find incredibly disappointing.

Horrible opening, bad use of special effects, poorly directed actors (Kylo acts differently to TFA, as Adam was asked to play up the teenager side of the character) and the movie really did nothing to make me connect to any of these characters on a deeper level, nothing. I was completely repelled by Luke. The more I see this thing, the more I lose interest in Star Wars. Such a hatchet job, such an arrogantly handled project with no substance to it.

All this movie did was kill Luke and Snoke. It did nothing for Rey, it did nothing for Finn, it did absolutely nothing for Leia who just stood around and talked outside of the Poppins scene.

That's it.

If neither Luke or Snoke died.. the movie would have been completely unnecessary. The ending of this completely ties up with the end of TFA, except Luke and Snoke are gone.

You couldn't keep Luke alive to face The Emperor again in Episode IX? This movie is a bad joke, and I finally understand the whole Space Balls critique. This was so badly done, it could have been an SNL parody (particularly the Hux and Kylo scenes, the worst villain combo ever)

Please JJ, get rid of Hux in the first ten minutes of IX.. he is the most laughable villain in this entire saga.

 

Interesting. I mean I was repelled by this Luke and what I can only describe as his deformation in order to serve the plot, I hated that Rey was denied meaningful training and in place we were given "she already has everything that's in the Jedi text" (*Hard eye roll*), I thought TLJ was a complete dereliction of Finn and potentially hobbled his story irrevocably, Canto Bight was a colossal waste, and that the movie was filled with conflicting or self contradictory themes, sabotage it's own sense of tension by allowing ships to move freely during the space chase, and was completely tone deaf in it's placement of humor...

...but dialogue did not seem like a problem. Like, if there was one thing that wasn't wrong, I would have argued that the dialogue was it. Snoke's conversation with Kylo, some of Luke's conversation with Rey, Holdo's conversations with Poe, DJ's conversation with Finn. I think they delivered well enough. The story itself may be weak but I don't see the general deliver of the dialogue (and their support of the plot) to be that problematic. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

 

"Master Skywalker... We need you to bring the Jedi back... because Kylo Ren is strong with the dark side of the Force."
"I wish I could put my fist through this whole lousy beautiful town".
"I cannot be betrayed, I cannot be beaten. I see his mind, I see his every intent. Yes. I see him turning the lightsaber to strike true. And now, foolish child. He ignites it, and kills his true enemy!"
"LET'S GO, CHROME DOME!"
"Hope is like the sun...if you only believe in it when you see it, you'll never make it through the night."​

​

The dialogue in this film is like something out of a badly-dubbed 90's anime. Although, let's be frank: there was a sizeable amount of dialogue just like this in TFA that everyone seems to overlook. Hell, my least favorite in line in the entire saga is Kylo Ren's: "I'm being torn apart...I want to be FREE of this pain!" That is some weapons-grade melodramatic DragonBall fandub dialogue right there.

 

It's very likely his ending, as that is what they've said. But I liken it to a cover band playing Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb" and the real deal playing that same song. Two VERY different things.

The problem is the story is extremely complex. I think Martin has said something like he isn't writing one novel, he's writing several novels that are all intertwined. Add to that the fact that he is a perfectionist and yeah, two very different things.

I guess we will see how this will all turn out. Hopefully for the best.

 

Openning scene, Hux in a shuttle to meet the KoR to discuss a mutiny. Kylo zooms in with his fighter and damages the shuttle so it's forced to crash land. Hux stumbles out to find Kylo and the KoR waiting for him. Make the crash land in a landing bay where ST's and Imperial officials are watching. Hux pleads with the KoR but they're all solidly on Kylo's side. Some Imperials loyal to Hux try and save him from his obvious end at this point, only to be dispatched by the KoR. Kylo walks up to Hux and Hux pulls a blaster and fires. Kylo stops the blaster mid flight, like in TFA, grabs hux by the throat and pulls his face into his own shimmering blaster bolt. Kylo looks out at the onlookers and says something ominous about traitors, making an example of Hux.

 

Actually alone you are not.

 

Well, he can't play Luke forever, no different than RDJ, Chris Evans, Daniel Craig no longer wanting waiting to play Ironman, Capt America and James Bond. I doubt TLJ had anything to do with his decision.

 

Yeah but there is a difference. Those guys left their respective roles to move on to other things. As much as I love Mark Hamill, let's be honest... there really is no industry demand for him as an actor in a major motion picture production. He does a ton of voice work, but he does not have a career with starring roles in major productions that those other guys have.

I don't know what Hamill's priorities are in his career or in his life (I know what he has said in various interviews but that may not necessarily line up with what he truly feels in his heart). If he wants to be an actor appearing in major theatrical releases, he simply does not have the options those other men you listed above have.

 

My problem is that everyone in the movie is a moron & it isn’t Star Wars. It is a snuff film using the same character names and actors as Star Wars movies. It is a 3 stooges movie where they get hurt and it’s rarely funny.

No one has any intelligence. Holdo does the only thing that isn’t watching her troops ALL get slaughtered (instead of mostly slaughtered).


Rey has to translate Chewies words for Luke? (that was a JJ/KK change I just know it...groan)

Yoda doesn’t show up until Rey left? Obj-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Yoda NEVER think to go to that water planet and say “Luke, good people are suffering and dying (those morons in the Resistance too), have you thought about getting off your fat butt and Helping?”

 

Even more impressive are the hoops of head-canon defenders of the film will go through to justify Yoda not showing up earlier, or why he's suddenly able to summon arcs of lightning, or why he chooses to do so now instead of a more critical hour, such as Kylo Ren slaughtering Luke's Jedi Students like livestock.

 

They quite possibly did think about doing that, but, as is explained in the film, Luke had cut himself off from the Force up until that point.

 

Which is where my issues with Yoda in TLJ begin, as stated, because he didn't do anything while Luke did have an unsevered connection to the Force in the flashback of his incident in the Jedi Temple, as the vision of the future Luke witnesses (along with a wealth of Jedi students) promptly demonstrates.

Yoda's perfectly happy to turn up years later to blast a tree containing some books to make a cheeky point about failure, but is miraculously absent during Luke's moment of contemplating familial murder, the slaughter of his students, and the emotional meltdown that Luke suffers upon waking up in the rubble, the last of which is the genesis for Luke cutting himself off from the Force and retreating in the first place.

The film literally shows the impact and relief Yoda grants Luke by talking to him and setting him straight, and yet conveniently omits him doing it in a critical moment which would've aided Luke when he needed it most. It's the utmost narrative contrivance and colossal writing oversight since it literally renders Luke's exile as so easily preventable as Yoda turning up sooner, but not doing so, and with no explanation or accountability whatsoever.

It's just a convenience of the script that you have to not think about in order to make this aspect of the story work. Much like a lot of the dramatic focal points of the film.

 

Wow.
Let's check the quality of the evidence on offer...

Yeah, I thought so.

I'm one of those who thinks of the series as two shows and that they made a great job of the adaption show.
For all my misgivings I know it can't be easy to put such a series to bed in a satisfactory manner (so many big US series fall flat in later seasons and don't close well) and if failure is the greatest teacher they've had some good lessons to bring to SW!

Allow that.

I agree with you guys about the corny dialogue/delivery.
Some ST lines/delivery make me cringe but I feel it's all in line with SW precedent and despite it's cheesiness that line/delivery by Gohan Kylo ↑ is one of my favorites...maybe because I'm one of those fans who are empathically disposed to the character?