THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Current user scores update (January 5)
Filmaffinity (Spain): 6.4 out of 10
Allocine (France): 2.8 out of 5
Rotten Tomatoes: 3.1 out of 5 (50% liked)
Metacritic: 4.6 out of 10
IMDb: 7.5 out of 10 (3rd worst rated SW live-action movie above Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace)

 

I particularly like seeing the IMDb rating keep dropping for TLJ. It's very satisfying. Now just under ROTS and only about 3 weeks after release!

 

Let me just say, it is so nice to find someone who so Erudite here in expressing their dislike. The Mary Sue I cannot stand how that term has become so toxic here. So many of the fandom clutch their collective pearls at the name. On one hand, I sympathize with them as it has become a buzz word in that it is a cheap ad hominem with arguments as hollow as canoes.

However, it is unfair to generalize this term and do tonal policing. Mary Sues and Gary Stus do exist. As for Rey, I have my reasons why she is one, and I don't use that term lightly. In fact, I am planning on writing a specialized essay on this forum describing it. But after the movie is out on home video and I have time to process my thoughts.

But in the immediate, I agree with your claim. She is bland. I liked Ridley's performance, but I didn't see anything resembling a character arc. Or if there was, it was super paper thin. As for Anakin, I didn't hate him, but I wasn't over the moon with him. Ironically, The Clone Wars animated series does the character a lot more justice. But that goes without saying, Dave is much better at writing characters than Lucas. Lucas is a world builder and template creator. In other words, he creates skeletons and scaffolds of ideas.

He needs others to flesh them out.

As for Luke, yeah; Kershner's commentary is spot on. Luke's whole character at that point was that his friends meant everything. Beyond just that display of friendship, they were at that point the only family he had. Ben was gone. Owen and Beru were gone. And he wasn't going to let the Empire take them again. It's the loyalty to a fault trope, but executed well.


I respect what Rian wanted to do, subvert expectations. But really, that is hollow when you consider that Rey never really develops any strong friendships outside of Finn. It is why I believe that the movie should have had a time skip so as to at least establish Rey's friendship with Poe and Finn in the movie.

As for the Yin and Yang concept, while I can see your point; I disagree actually. I feel like a Yin and Yang storyline actually offers a lot if something is done with it. Legend of Korra comes to mind as, without spoilers, the second season in my view did a wonderful job of elaborating the dichotomy of opposites and how in turn it created an endless cycle. Balance in the Force I always just saw as Luke defeating the dark side and keeping it in check. Darkness, I always saw needing to exist so as the light could shine and vice versa.

And personally, I liked that idea in TLJ but as I explained, it wasn't extrapolated enough. Anakin being a Chosen One; I don't blame you. I am NOT a fan of those storylines usually. Avatar The last Airbender is the one exception to this rule.

But that franchise, unlike the Prequels, does a lot with the concept in terms of fleshing it out and the role in the story. It also helps that Aang is a fantasitc character who we as the audience enjoy. Anakin is not that in the movies. And yeah; saving the world(or in this case, bringing balance) is important.

But you care more if the people who are doing it are likable.

 

I look forward to Ep 10 when Rey turns out to be a failed old hermit spinster. Disney recasts her with a new actress 30 years older. Set 30 years in the future after Rey becomes a complete failure she runs away and hides. Spends her days drinking green tata milk and waiting to die. I'm sure all the people coming here to defend the garbage that is these sequels will love Rey having the same future as Luke. A New Force will be followed by the Last Nobody.

 

Aren’t the last remaining Jedi, right after their order gets wiped out, obligated to go into hiding and do nothing while the galaxy burns? Isn’t that the precedent set? Then they die doing something noble, become force ghosts, and now have some actual wisdom to impart on the living.

Wash, rinse, repeat every 40 years.

 

LOL. But, I think you over-estimate her chances. She's nowhere near the grand great and memorable character Luke is. She's actually a bit of a nothing. Even if she shows up in Episode 10 in the way you describe, I doubt anyone would care much at all. A casual shrug of the shoulders and a "meh" would probably the appropriate response to her character. Forgettable then, forgettable now etc.

 

Yes, like I said, Rian Johnson simply does not understand the character. Either that, or he wanted to do something "x" with the story and shoehorned Luke in to fill that role so as to make his story work (it doesn't - but, that's a separate discussion in itself). There's a paragraph from a critique I posted earlier that encapsulates it well, I think:

That said, if there is one thing we know about Luke Skywalker, arguably his defining characteristic, it is that he believes in the redemptive power of the good in everyone. Further, he had his entire belief system actually reinforced in his darkest hour. This is not someone who should be swayed by future premonitions of darkness, especially when even in the current timeline we can see how much light is left in Kylo. It’s Kylo’s entire arc that he is trying to snuff that light out.

If there is one thing that should not have been the cause of Luke’s exile it is overreaction to the darkness in someone or not believing in the power of the light.

I'm not sure if he wasn't just a massive troll. And that people who love the movie aren't just gullible. That sort of thing can work well as a standalone series, but not, I think, as part of the main story (not unless the main story itself was perhaps completely new and did not relate to what had come before it).

This is another area where I think Lucas erred. From a story telling point of view, I don't think the Force should be a part of the main action - if that makes any sense. (Quite apart from the fact that the nebulous nature of the Force makes it difficult to talk about in specifics and often leads to circle after circle in blind alleys). The PT and now the ST make the Force some kind of 'thing' that seems to actually and regularly act on the world. So, that the explanation for something can become "it was the Force" (in other words, it was God). It's just lazy in my opinion.

The Force as a background where characters drive the narrative on their own terms and from their own virtues and vices lead to better tales, I think.

Fair enough about the yin/yang interpretation. I think I prefer the conception of the Force as more akin to mainline Christian, Islamic, Judaic theology (i.e. that creation is good). Lucas' idea appears to have been this:

Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:

"[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.

The above is from a wookiepedia article which now appears to have been edited. Did Lucas change his mind and go for a more yin/yang? I hope not. In a video on making of the TCW there is a line where he says "going towards the Dark Side is to be out of balance" (IIRC). But, I can't appear to find any definitive recent evidence either way. Disney LucasFilm do appear to be going the yin/yang route. Either through ignorance of the above, or because that's what they prefer.

I'm not sure if I'm on board with that, because as I said I think it can lead to repetitive (and lazy stories). Both sides locked in some titanic and eternal battle which all participants are helpless to circumvent and overcome. I think that a depressing notion that runs counter to the 'heart' of what Star Wars is.

Oh man, Avatar was awesome. I loved (and love) that show. I especially liked Zuko's arc, you know? He was such a fantastic character. And his arc is so well contrasted to the arc of his sister Azula. I never really got around to watching Legend of Korra. I'll have to check it out now.

 

Disney is going to ride the Rey character for a looooooong time. KK will see to that.

 

Of course they are. It's too bad the character has no substance. Damn near perfect for no other reason than "just because." I'm so thrilled that Darth Temper Tantrum and Mary Sue Rey will be the main protagonists of Ep. 9. I can't wait for another 2 1/2 hours of Rey performing amazing feats with no training and Kylo yelling and stomping his feet like a hysterical child. How sad that this is now the Star Wars we have to look forward to.

 

If after seeing Looper you'd told me Rian Johnson would make a Star Wars movie rated lower on imdb than one of the prequels, I would have told you you're out of your mind.

Yet here we are.

 

He made SWVIII more like The Brothers Bloom than Looper with the tone and fakeouts/conning/gotchas. That's the movie of his this one feels the most like, I've seen them all.

 

I'm gonna sum it up really real quick for everyone.

Simply put, Rian Johnson was the wrong man for the job.

 

That awkward moment when you take more pleasure watching the new episode of Discovery than the Star Wars movies ...

 

you may add this one

MyMovies (Italy): 2.6 out of 5
http://www.mymovies.it/film/2017/starwars8/

 

ROFL, I'm trying to like it but to be honest I think that just like JJ's movies it's not up to par with the star trek I grew up loving (TNG, DS9, Voyager, even Enterprise).
I think The Orville is a much better sequel to those and that is definitely awkward.

 

Well, we will disagree on this.

The Orville is horrible, it's not even scify, there is so much anachronism in there that I was waiting the aliens to quote Jesus ... !!!

 

Thanks. Now I need big Japanese and Chinese and South Korean and Brazilian movie sites to add.

 

It’s not going to take the pain of #RIPReySolo away, sorry.

 

Not to toot my own horn, but here was a post I made in another thread on December 9 when I started to get worried about the comments Hamill was making:



Jedi77-83
I honestly think Hamill is leaving these vague comments as a ‘I told you so’ in case there is a TLJ backlash or even fans reacting negatively at Luke’s arc in the movie (I have avoided spoilers so I have no idea). Remember Hamill was not a big fan of the TFA ending as he thought it would be laughed off by fans.

#62 Dec 9, 2017