Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

Exactly. And the thing is, he needs that mask to sound scary. Without the mask, he's just an unscathed, vulnerable person. Now he will have to live with a permanent scar on his face to remind him of his weakness.

 

Or he will be too self conscious and never take his mask off ever again .

 

Interesting point. I guess resistance would be pointless against a man who can suspend blaster bolts and disengage a conscious mind. He chose to be at his son's mercy the moment he revealed himself.

I agree. Looks pretty genuine to me.

Another interesting point. It wouldn't be the first time Han is used by a dark side users to send out a "pain alert" in order to attract Luke.

I agree. Why would he hold his saber out to Han if not for Han to use it on himself? If Kylo wanted out he could have done it himself and Han would be little threat to Kylo - even armed with his saber.

Is it Ben saying "thankyou" as part of the double agent theory or Kylo saying "thankyou" for the easy kill?

I'm confused about this thanking business. If Han participated or even pushed the button himself wouldn't that void or at least diminish the test/dark trial/rite of passage that Snoke required Kylo to overcome?

 

the position of the hands has always struck me. again, not that i think Han pushed the button, but Kylo Ren is absolutely intending at first to surrender the weapon. he holds the hilt in his non-dominant hand. if he was just drawing Han in to kill him, he would have held it pointing the other way. it is in Han's dominant hand, however.

Ren thanked him for being a sacrificial lamb. ironically, the sacrifice didn't work. Ren didn't get what he expected. so in an interesting way, that does beg the question of whether the moment is a truly committed patricide. theoretically, if Ren had killed him with full intent, he would have gained power from the act. but he didn't.

 

True. I had overlooked a symbolic/ritualistic disarming (very Kendo) and also the fact he seemed surprised that he didn't feel any different after the act.

 

Yes. My feelings and thoughts precisely!

Kylo should be seen a victim to a vicious and terrifying figure who has poisoned him since early childhood. He is probably been tortured and not to sympathise with him is very strange...He is Han and Leia's son. If you don't sympathise with Ben Solo it means you actually hate Han and Leia and wish them all the worse...This is especially strange when people say that he is irredeemable because he killed Han... It is precisely that he killed Han that he must be redeemed.

Snoke is most probably torturing Kylo. You are actually the first person to point out something I always thought about Snoke's lines to bring Rey to him. Majority of people seem to interpret that line to mean he wants Kylo to bring Rey to him to be trained, but that's not really what he says/intends...

"You have compassion for her."
"No-never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?"
"Kylo Ren. It appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me"
​

As you correctly point out, what he actually means. There is a direct threat of torture for poor Kylo.

So when Kylo offers to be Rey's teacher he is not following orders of Snoke as many people misinterpret the scene and he wants to be her teacher, not to bring her to Snoke...

Kylo is by the way (which I'm sure you've also noticed) often acting against Snoke's and FO orders - Hux even has a line warning him that "his personal interests" are conflicting with Snoke's orders...While Snoke's plan is that Luke is not found, and is fine with destroying the droid and the Resistance planet so that the map is destroyed, Kylo's plan is to find Luke. And we don't really know yet why...I really doubt the shallow explanation which I've seen many give is that Kylo wants to kill all jedi, bla bla, simplistic and imo wrong motivations they prescribe to him...Kylo is playing some long game that we still don't know about...
(I'm a total newbie at posting on forums actually, but my curiosity and intense wish to talk and discuss the film basically drove me to do something quite out of character...I haven't felt so intrigued and excited about a film for quite a long time...Basically since the first Lord of the Rings, when me as a huge Tolkien fan from long before anticipated those films with great interest...)

 

it is exciting, isn't it? i'm not typically a forum rat myself, but i don't have any friends who are as crazy in love with this film as i am, so yeah....

that scene about Snoke wanting Rey is so disturbing to me. i wish they hadn't cut it, but maybe it was too revealing in some way?

all of Kylo Ren's little disobediences are so typical of someone in his situation. his whole life is out of his control, so it's the small things, the little petty power plays with Hux, etc., that keep him feeling like he has any identity.

which is why Rey is absolutely going to be his turning point. he does feel compassion for her, he connects to her loneliness, he wants a real friend so desperately, a family, a sense of real belonging. Snoke has given him the illusion of power and a place in the Order, but it's all lies and the good part of him knows it.

i don't know that he'll have the strength to fully outright go against Snoke without Rey. and i don't know if he actually has a long game. he might just be hellbent on wanting to kill Luke because he thinks it might cauterize the wound in his soul. he's desperate to escape his pain and seems very confused about how to stop it.

i hate Snoke so much.

 

Ben's Face:

 

I think the "Thank you" works for the double agent theory, because since we already know that Ben killing Han is a test that Snoke has assigned to him (i will say as a condition to complete his training) only killing his father Ben proves to Snoke that he is fully devoted to the dark side (something which I think Snoke suspects is not really true...Thus, the words to Vader's mask, Supreme Leader "senses it"). I think, it is very possible that Kylo has actually never seen Snoke before in person and that the patriciate shows Snoke that him having committed this horrifying deed he is genuine in his wish to go to the Dark side. Also, for the sith wasn't it killing someone close, a final test to commit to the dark side...I remember that Palpatine had to kill his father too...

So Kylo's long game might be, learn about the dark side so that he has the power to confront Snoke as maybe Kylo (and Luke?) realise that only using both the dark side and the light can they defeat Snoke who seems to be quite powerful and who has been in the shadows for a long time...Another thing achieved is that Kylo would have won Snoke's trust and be allowed in his physical presence which will give him the opportunity to complete his task...Something in these lines...It seems Snoke has been quite cautious with Kylo because how else can we explain that after so many years he has never completed his training. I think Han's sacrifice was the horrible price that both Han and Kylo had to pay for access to Snoke...

But even if there is no Kylo "undercover agent" plan and all is not pre-planned, I think this is what will happen in the end. Kylo will ultimately be the one to defeat Snoke combining forces with Rey and maybe possibly also Luke, although I think that by the ep. 9 Luke there is a high possibility that Luke will already be a force ghost...

 

Very well put. I loved the use of light in that scene.

 

Like physical light ?

 

Yes, light was coming through the open door/window and was shining on Kylo Ren as he is face to face with Han. Then the outside light fades away and that is when he did the deed.

 

Me too - top class cinematography and storytelling - straight out of the concept art. Welcome to the Cantina!

 

Me too! I simply had to talk with people and that's why for the first time in my life signed up for forums a month ago...I have only one good friend who is a big Star Wars fan but we live on different continents now, so nobody to talk to about the many questions and thoughts I have and analyze and basically tear the film apart with...

I find that we think alike on many (all?) points!
Also. I hate Snoke too and also wish I can give poor Kylo and Leia a hug. That's how I feel.

 

Love it, thanks for the pic's.

 

hahaha ~ yes yes, and yes, i have never so strongly wanted to sit a family down for serious counseling.

 

This is a good point.

I also wondered about when Kylo Ren says to Finn and Rey that, "It's just us now. Han Solo can't save you." I think Finn and Rey take this as a threat, but I got the idea that Ren is actually offering to save them. Whatever he thinks "saving" means.

 

i took that line in the same vein as him pounding his blaster wound: he's completely derailed about his father and this is his way of using that pain to project back on them.

 

The Kylo character is wonderfully complex - I manage to feel empathy for him despite him being somewhere between my 5year old nephew and a psychopath!

I'm still a little curious as to how he came to see the resistance as traitors, murderers and thieves yet is complicit in destroying so many civilians. Growing up in a cult made me curious about researching how "good" people can be manipulated so I can help empower others to defy indoctrination.

“Give me a baby and I can make any kind of man.” - John B Watson

Kylo's cognitive dissonance might be a result of stockholm syndrome and the use of:

Common Brainwashing Techniques: (from Jeff Schmidt's, Disciplined Minds)

• Big promises
• Isolation from non-members
• Unquestioned authority [blind obedience]
• Guilt and shaming
• Total personal exposure
• Sacred or scientific dogma of a higher authority than experience
• Taking away true self-confidence
• The only path to a salvation
• Strict attitude control

and/or

7 Social Processes That Grease The Slippery Slope of Evil: (from Philip Zimbardo, The Psychology of Evil)

1. Mindlessly taking the first small step.
2. Dehumanization of others.
3. De-individuation of self (anonymity and the warrior appearance).
4. Diffusion of personal responsibility.
5. Blind obedience to authority
6. Uncritical conformity to group norms
7. Passive tolerance of evil through inaction or indifference. (The evil of inaction)

 

i've been using the term stockholmed here on the boards when referring to him because that's absolutely what i see in the character when he tried to talk to Han about the "wise" Supreme Leader.

i absolutey feel empathy for him. first remark i made to my brother leaving the theatre the first time watching it: "that poor kid ~ he's so demented!" meanwhile everyone around was cursing his name ~ hahaha

you can absolutely see all of these bullet points in the portrayal. he's textbook brainwashed.