Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

I feel you. Life, the human estate of grief and joy...

I want to "like" but it seems weird to "like" someones tears.

 

Nice theory. I hadn't think of it at all. But on the other hand we know that Vader actually finished what he started. He fulfilled his destiny by turning back to the light. Unless we are speaking in a more general manner, and Kylo means that he will finish destroying the Sith...

But then again the undercover theory doesn't sound good to me... If he is undercover he is only for his own reasons and his affection to Darth Vader. I can't imagine Luke asking him to kill his fellow students, to kill his father, to kill a lot of people for the purpose of an undercover mission...

 

Yeah but what I am totally missing in Han's version of "unconditional love" is any sign of self-criticism for years of apparently neglecting his son's needs, when Kylo flat-out states several times that Han was a disappointing father somehow.

Shouldn't Han rather apologize to his son on the bridge and ask for forgiveness before asking Ben to come home? I think that's just Han's tragic flaw - that, unlike Leia, he is convinced that he hasn't done anything wrong when it comes to raising Ben.

Instead he saunters onto this bridge and asks Kylo to "come home" and "we miss you" as if everything was fine and dandy in the Solo camp. The hypocracy alone would be enough for Kylo to stab Han. He realises that his father is unapologetic to the last about his own contribution to his son's downfall; Han just rubs it in for the last time.

I guess Ben/Kylo's "Can you help me" line was an advance apology on his part for what he was about to do.

 

that's assuming that Han Solo was actually a bad parent. or that he ever actually neglected his son.

we know Ben is not stable. we don't know why Ben is disappointed with his father. between those two characters, it's a safer bet to say that Ben is the one with a distorted view of the past, planted by Snoke, and designed to turn him against his family.

i'm speculating too here, but to lay the blame on Han is unfair (and for the moment unsubstantiated by what we know from the film).

and i don't see Han "sauntering" or refusing to accept responsibility. on the contrary, he approaches his son with humility and begs him to come home. i also don't see Ben not recognize that. he's afraid of his father's love (he flinches) because his own love for his father is what's tearing him to pieces. his decision to kill Han is not about revenge on Han, it's about trying to snuff his own pain. Snoke has convinced him that if he does this awful thing, he can fully embrace the Dark (and the implication is that he will draw power from it, and no longer suffer the pull to the Light).

but of course Snoke is a big fat liar because that's not what happens.

 

Okay, I'm assuming that Han was an inadequate father on the basis of three bits of information:

1.) Leia admits that her sending away Ben was a mistake that she still blames herself for. Han has at least consented to sending Ben away, which makes him jointly responsible in my eyes. From a pedagogical point of view, I'd say that passive parenting is just as bad as being actively mean to your kid. Yet, when Leia mentions their need to accept responsibility, Han contradicts her.

2.) Han has to be told that a father has a more important influence on his son than the son's teacher. I mean - duh!!!! That's kind of basic parenting knowledge. That Han doesn't know that by the time he is 70 is troubling. Han's "If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I" comment sounds as if Luke was the first person to ever try to get through to Ben.

3.) Both Leia and Han admit that they have been fighting a lot at home. If you are Larry Kasdan, you may think that being verbally aggressive towards a love interest is sexy, but a professional psychologist would call it an unsound basis for a relationship, especially if the household contains children. And even in their last scene together, Leia says to Han that he still drives her mad and Han says he leaves Leia for emotional effect. That's just sick behaviour in my eyes, and that's the home Han is trying to sell to his son on the bridge. I'm not saying Han&Leia couldn't have worked as a childless couple, but as parents they seem far too self-absorbed.

 

sending their son to Luke is not passive parenting. they see their boy struggling and they want to help, but they are ill-equipped to do so. Leia certainly recognizes this and why wouldn't Han agree? he isn't FS and can't possibly understand what his son is going through. he's also probably terrified of Ben "being like Vader". those are very normal parental reactions when you have a troubled child you can't relate to. Han not being able to relate to Ben is not necessarily a symptom of bad parenting. we don't know all the variables. and we don't know what it was about Ben's behavior was so disconcerting.

It was obviously very painful for all of them when Leia sent Ben away. they had to admit: "we can't handle him, maybe Luke can". so it makes sense that Han would ask this question now ~ even more sense because he probably feels like he already failed Ben once. is Han a great parent? maybe not. he certainly has no confidence in his parenting at this stage (but neither might you if your kid turned out to be Kylo Ren). i seriously doubt they sent Ben to Luke without exhausting themselves trying to handle him. and don't forget, Leia knew Snoke was prowling about, so there's the added concern that a Jedi uncle is naturally better equipped to teach their son to resist the Dark (presumably).

children grow up with fighting parents and don't go out to destroy the galaxy. some do, of course, but to point to Han & Leia's dysfunction as a cause for Ben to want to destroy them and everything else is laying a bit too much emphasis on the home dynamic and, i think, minimizes Ben's actual problems (his clear sense of isolation due to his FS, and the influence of Snoke).

i make excuses for Ben all over the place. i empathize with his situation and i want to see him fixed, but i can't bring myself to blame Han and Leia for some massive failing on their part as parents. especially since i don't see it supported anywhere in the information we've been given so far. you can't underestimate the effect of bad influence (Snoke) on even a good kid from a good home. and Ben has to accept responsibility for the state he is in as well. even "seduced" by Snoke, he's a grown man now and clearly at war with his conscience.

the scene on the bridge could have gone either way. Han offered his son an unconditional absolution and simultaneously by his confrontation was asking for forgiveness as well. "will you help me?" "yes, anything".

Ben wanted to go home. but Snoke has too strong a hold on him.

 

That's not what I meant Saying "My wife made that decision, not I" would be passive parenting. And either Han consented actively to what Leia later admitted was a mistake, or he allowed a mistake to happen, which would be passive parenting that doesn't absolve him from guilt either.

 

but guilt for what? wanting what's best for his son?

 

That's not what I meant Saying "My wife made that decision, not I" would be passive parenting. And either Han consented actively to what Leia later admitted was a mistake, or he allowed a mistake to happen, which would be passive parenting that doesn't absolve him from guilt either.

Another thing I found interesting is what kind of monster people seem to make out of Ben Solo just based on Han's remark that he had "too much Vader in him". What does that even mean? Is that bad?

What I know is that Lor San Tekka seems to have liked him before he turned to the dark side, Luke did in fact train him, and Kylo calls Ben "weak". I have real trouble reconciling that with the idea of "too much Vader".

It's Han's word against Kylo's. Ben Solo is not Kylo Ren.

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Wouldn't "what's best for his son" include telling him other things than "the Force is mumbo jumbo"? I should think that they might not have needed to send the boy away if Han had respected his son's faith and ancestry a bit more.

 

the Vader remark could refer to any number of behavior problems. we simply don't know what they were. we know Han thought it was a bad thing, so i suspect Ben was angry, impatient, and possibly even cruel ~ and without obvious cause if Han is suggesting it's a predisposition.

Ben could have been a perfectly lovely child who simply had no impulse control (he still has no impulse control!). that might be perceived as too much Vader and cause for concern.

and again, between Han an Kylo (or even Ben!) Han likely has a more honest perspective on what happened. Kylo is brainwashed by Snoke and Ben (if we're going to treat them as different aspects) seems to be in too much pain to have any real clarity.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2016 ---

as Han is definitely a believer in TFA, we have no indication whatsoever he rejected Ben's FS. none. i'm not sure where you're getting this impression from.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2016 ---

weak for being too attached to his sentiment (i.e. his love for his family) ~ that's the implication in the scene and why he identifies that with Han ("just like his father"), who has risked everything to come fetch him home.

there's no difficulty reconciling this with "too much Vader". like i said, Ben could have been a lovely child who was simply consumed by his passions.

 

Han tells Finn and Rey that he used to believe the Force was mumbo jumbo. He doesn't say when he changed his mind. Maybe we're supposed to think it happened during ROTJ but I must have missed that. Han also tells Finn and Rey that he "used to be" Han Solo.

What it comes down to is the general nature vs nurture debate. "Too much Vader" as was Han's view is the nature view, Leia seems to believe that nurture is the more important aspect, to which I heartily agree. If Han finally comes around, it is too little too late.

I see now what a touchy subject parenting and family dynamics seems to be. Maybe they had the same kind of passionate disputes when they wrote the script. Which is why they decided to leave this unresolved.

 

well obviously it's too late ~ hahaha.

i just think we should be careful about jumping to conclusions as to Han and Leia's performance as parents. like i said: i feel bad for Ben, but i blame Snoke more than anybody. there's only so much parents can do to protect their child when he's already going down a bad path ~ and it does seem like Han and Leia tried.

now i will give you that Han clearly gave up after Ben went full-blown Kylo Ren. but he's heartbroken and feels like a failure (as any parent would). that's gotta be punishment enough. the important thing is that he did try again once Leia convinced him. and, unfortunately, he gave up his life trying.

edit: you're the first person i've come across who blames Han and Leia for Kylo Ren ~ that's curiously refreshing even if i disagree ~ hahaha.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2016 ---

i don't think it's touchy at all, but it certainly opens the door to a lot of judgments that might not be fair or intended, so yes, i agree the less we actually know the better. allow the circumstances to resonate as they will.

 

Dishonor! Lol.

 

i'm so accustomed to people hating on Ben and wanting him to die for murdering so beloved an icon that i'm surprised to realize anybody would feel Han got what was coming to him!

and i thought i was a Kylo Ren apologist ~ hahaha

 

I know. Right after the movie I was so mad about Kylo Ren and wanted him to die (I'm a big Han/Leia fan). But now I reckon I've come to terms with it, and I think the one to blame is Snoke. Kylo might be mostly a victim and might be redeemed.

 

he has to be! for the sake of Han's legacy and for Leia. and even for Luke.
i feel like it would be a cruel and unforgivably un-Star Warsy thing if he can't be saved.

 

Han knew what he had to do.

 

I wonder if Kylo admired Vader for letting himself get killed after realising that he had been the Emperor's puppet. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but dying may have been the last thing Vader started in ROTJ:

VADER: Luke, help me take this mask off.
LUKE: But you'll die.
VADER: Nothing can stop that now. Just for once let me look at you with my own eyes.

But if Snoke resurrected the idea of Vader by conditioning his grandson into becoming Darth Borderline, then Vader hasn't managed to die for good for his sins - yet. Maybe Kylo, once he realises that Snoke is using him in the same way the Emperor used Vader, is asking his father to kill him on the bridge, because he considers himself beyond repair at this point. Dead people cannot succumb to the dark side. But Han refuses.