Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

the first time i watched the movie, this is what i got from the moment. i agree that Kylo Ren thinks he has two choices: kill his father or die himself. all he's thinking about in that moment is ending his pain ~ and those are the only ways he can see to doing it.

but i don't think Han refuses. Han may not even understand his intent. they struggle for the lightsaber and Ren doesn't give Han the chance to accept his surrender because he's weak and frightened (and probably knows Han would refuse to kill him). so he chooses the path that he's been conditioned for by Snoke because it's the easiest choice.

 

I've seen the movie for the third time today, and I've changed my own mind on the matter (facepalm - when can we do bluray analysis?). What I've noticed now is the entire "seen our son" subtext that had escaped me previously.

When Han meets up with Leia again, he says: "I've seen him. I've seen our son." What he has seen is that masked guy coordinating the destruction of Maz's castle and kidnapping Rey. That's the kind of guy who would destroy Luke's school and do awful things to his Jedi younglings. So when Han confronts Leia and she gives him this "there's still light in him" speech, you get the impression she doesn't know what she's talking about because she hasn't seen any of his atrocities.

Then you get the Rey interrogation in which Kylo takes off his helmet, and we see this confused emo guy who looks redeemable. So we think Leia may be right with what she senses. And then Leia tells Han about Snoke and sees him off with the words "If you see our son again, bring him home", as if she's asking him to look for the guy under the mask.

Which is why Han asks Kylo to remove his helmet, so he can see his son. Except the Kylo on the bridge looks far more collected and menacing than in the interrogation scene. So my latest take is that Kylo wanted to be understood rather than rescued on that bridge. He wanted to communicate that he was a guy capable of killing his father on Snoke's order. And I see now that this intent is not something Han saw coming. But he manages to come to terms with quickly enough to be able to pat his son on the cheek, which takes Kylo by surprise.

 

i think you're right with regard to the Ben/Ren dichotomy. Leia certainly doesn't want Han bringing Kylo Ren home ~ hahaha

but i disagree that the bridge scene was so cut and dried as: I'm Darkside now, Dad. need to me prove it? let me kill you.

he tries to pull off "I'm Darkside and it's the Rightside", but then near-about has a breakdown because he doesn't actually believe it. i think everything hinges on his pain and fear. he's not thinking rationally in that moment. he's incapable of thinking rationally. he's confronted with his own schism and has to squelch it or implode.

he wants go home but he thinks it's too late. if there's any rationalization in him for what follows, it's the hope that by killing Han, he'll stop wanting to go home.

 

I think you're absolutely right on all points.

 

I don't think he is collected in the scene with Han at all. In fact it is the opposite and this is the closest we have seen him in an emotional turmoil (the other instance where we can feel his intense vulnerability is when he talks with Vader's mask, where importantly Kylo says that "Supreme Leader senses it". This intimate confession is a telling sign that Kylo doesn't want Snoke to sense his conflict and is actually afraid of Snoke sensing his conflict...). I think that Kylo is rather composed throughout most of the interrogation scene with Rey which is the first instance he removes the helmet and we see the young face of Ben/Kylo, but I see a guy who is calm and sort of cocky even, reminiscent of Han Solo a bit, but a guy without emotional conflict or turmoil, until of course Rey manages to turn the mind probe on him, where he is very surprised (even confused), but not really in emotional turmoil. But in the scene with Han he is literally torn apart. We see the extreme emotions change - from being on the brink of crying and genuinely in pain, is juxtaposed to the very brief moment when all light goes away and we see evil take over him only for a brief instant as he stabs Han, and then the expression on his face after Han falls is again as torn (or even more so) than before that, and then Chewie shoots him and he falls on his knees...

He says he is torn apart and indeed he shows it and I'm sure he is genuine. I have no doubt that he is not manipulating or lying. In fact and very interestingly from what we have seen in the movie Kylo lacks cunning and he doesn't lie. (Except perhaps conceal things from Snoke and Hux and have his own agenda...but that's something else).
To Han he says : "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it". What he is saying is, "I know (Snoke gave me that task that is the ultimate test) that I have to kill you, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it". He has to kill Han (I suspect this may very well be a condition that Snoke has made for him in order to complete his training), but deep down he really doesn't want to. (Of course at that moment I doubt Han knows what his son is talking about). Interestingly many people when they hear the line "He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him." they fail to understand that that is not an insult to Han (as some people hear it), but is an insult to himself as Ben Solo. In fact this line tells us that Ben Solo is/was very much like his father, Han. But the truth is that Kylo has not yet destroyed Ben Solo. Leai knows it, Han knows it and also Kylo knows it.

What's tearing him apart is his conflict between the light and the dark. Apart from a conflict between the dark side and the light side of the Force the conflict is at the same time between Ben Solo and Kylo Ren. And it is painful. This is the first time we have someone who is "seduced" by the light. Everybody until now has always been seduced by the dark side. I see the character as a split personality almost - the masked menacing powerful and terrifying FO Kylo Ren and the vulnerable young man who is still there behind the mask and who is what remains of Ben Solo.
We still don't know why he thinks he needs to go completely dark. How did Snoke manage to manipulate him (he most certainly is doing it), and as Leia has suggested this has been going on for many years...And more importantly why Kylo thinks this is the way he must be.

Leia is FS and she feels the conflict in their son. She doesn't need to see his face to know that. With or without mask I'm sure she can feel his conflict. I think the mask is Kylo's way to hide Ben from people. He says he has destroyed Ben, but that is not really true...

When Kylo asks Han "Will you help me?" and Han says "Anything", I think Han doesn't still know about what specifically Kylo asks, but when Kylo hands him the lightsaber and we see them pulling at it, for some reason I think that at that moment Han understands what is going to/must happen and turns the lightsaber pointing it to himself. Kylo ignites it, but I believe that Han understood and indeed helped. This is his ultimate sacrifice for his son which I believe is what will eventually become the reason why Kylo will become Ben Solo again. Han's gentle gesture touching lovingly his son's cheek will haunt Kylo. It is actually Han's gesture at the end that leads me to think that Han could have had a hand in his own murder. He agreed to help and he did. We already know that Han's murder weakened Kylo, instead of giving him strength. He should have stopped Chewie's bowcaster shot if he was not in the state of immense emotional breakdown as I think he was. And very importantly, something that to my surprise many people don't realise, only if Kylo Ren becomes Ben Solo again and is redeemed can Han Solo's death be heroic as it was. Otherwise it would just be extremely tragic. But Han is a hero and his sacrifice is heroic and selfless and his death completes this character's arc - from a money loving scoundrel who only had his own interest at heart he made the ultimate selfless sacrifice. Han Solo is a hero and his death can become a hero's death only if his son transforms from the villain that he is now to the hero which I think he is set up to be. The meaning of Han's ultimate sacrifice for his son will become meaningful only if Ben Solo returns. And I believe he will. His father already forgave him, and so shall we. People who expect that Han and Leia's son will go full evil, without redemption and without surviving it are simply really very wrong at the moment and will only understand it as late as after 4 years.

 

I'm sorry, I was imprecise. The moment he takes off his helmet he appears collected to me, and challenging. It took some guts to walk onto the bridge at that moment.

 

ironically, it's Kylo Ren who's frightened on the bridge.
the way he flinches when Han walks up to him while he's trying to play angry puffer-fish is a beautifully telling moment.

 

Another one right in the feels...

 

this is payback:

 

I deserve it. *starts sobbing*

 

Just read this on a random piece of fan-fiction and more tears lol:

 

hahaha ~ this thread has become a battleground.

 

y u do dis. y.
I can't.

 

Ben was absolutely honest and conflicted. All the symbolism of that scene points in that direction as well. Han Solo watching from far distance how Kylo (Ben) goes into the bridge is representing their past history, when he saw him leave and did nothing to bring him back.

Then the present history: Han stops Kylo half way of "crossing to the other side" of the bridge/platform, clearly representing Kylo's state of mind at that point, half way in his journey to the dark side, feeling the call from the light, doubtful, "I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain" (in the novel when Han says "your mother misses you" Kylo starts crying)

Also something very interesting is written in the script: when Han says "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you -- you know it's true" Kylo hesitates. Somehow, he does know it.

Finally Kylo kills Han - and by killing him is also killing the reminiscence of Ben ("weak and foolish, like his father") - but he was doubtful, he waits until the light has vanished to do it...If you read the script for that scene, says: "The moment seems to last forever. And just then, the LAST BEAM OF SUNLIGHT streaming through the open hatch VANISHES. Han actually smiles -- and reaches out for the dark weapon --but with the light now gone, KYLO REN'S EYES FILL WITH DARKNESS, HE IGNITES THE LIGHTSABER -- THE FIERY BLADE SHOOTS OUT, RIGHT THROUGH HAN'S CHEST AND BACK!"

Immediatly after that scene, the script points "Kylo Ren is somehow WEAKENED by this wicked act. Himself horrified. His SHOCK is broken only when --CHEWIE CRIES OUT IN AGONY! Chewie furiously FIRES AT KYLO REN, HITTING HIM IN THE SIDE! Kylo Ren falls back, stunned"

Of course there are multiple other clues and symbolism out there, but all is pointing to the same direction: Kylo Ren was in fact conflicted, half way in his journey to the dark side and he knew that to complete his path he has to do what he did, kill his own father ("I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it")

May the force be with us all

 

When reading that, I could not stop crying.

Right after the movie I had such a despise for Kylo and only wanted to see him pay for what he's done. But now I feel sorry about the guy. Snoke is the one to blame.

 

What are we asking here, if the sadistic, backstabbing bastard who betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi students was capable of playing it cool so Han didn't see what he was going to do?

Look, I don't doubt his conflict. A lot has been made of that. Obviously he finds it difficult. But as soon as he sees Han he knows he is going to kill him. The whole dropping the mask and handing the saber over was part of the ruse. He wasn't genuine when he asked for Han's help because he knew Han couldn't do anything at this point - he was going to kill Han. For Han to help in that situation Kylo would've had to ask him "Hey pops, is it ok if I kill you so I can resist the pull of the light"?

No, it was a hard thing to do for him, but that bastard side to his character enabled him to still coldly betray his father's love. Saying "will you help me?" was part of the ruse and actually pi**ed all over Han's compassion.

Look, I'd have more sympathy for Kylo if it wasn't for the fact he's doing all this to be more powerful. I mean, Anakin was a pretty awful but at least he wanted to save someone else from dying.

 

we don't know Luke's students were killed. there is no confirmation on that. "destroyed" is a term with a variety of connotations. we don't know, in fact, what Kylo Ren has done up to this point. apparently nothing so bad that Han and Leia wouldn't take him back with open arms.

i can't see any artifice in what Ren does on the bridge. this is a character who despises looking weak. he has no reason to trick Han about anything. he can kill him with a whim. yes, he knows that he's expected to kill his father and you agree that's hard. we also agree that he is weak. he's got two options: kill his father or die himself.

he wouldn't drop his helmet and surrender his lightsaber if it was clear to him what he's about to do. if it was a ruse, he'd have no need to hesitate or submit his alter ego. i don't think there's anything ungenuine about the plea itself. maybe it's debatable what he's asking for help with (let me kill you? kill me? i can't pick so will you?).

 

Kyli was definitely genuine, full of turmoil and conflict. Though I dont think this means he didn't use his fear and hatred of his weakness as a source of power to his advantage, but he didnt anticipate his fathers willingness to sacrifice hi self for him and the extent of his fathers unconditional love at the end, as expresed by his gesture touvhing Kylis face at the end. His self loathing and low sekf esteem didn't let him accept his the fullness of his fathers unconditional love, and this will haunt him all his days.

 

Killed/destroyed. Whatever, he betrayed Luke. And in the visual dictionary it says he killed them with his saber and is referred to as "Jedi killer".
Anyway, my point isn't that Kylo was unfeeling in the scene but that when he dropped his helmet and handed over the saber he wasn't thinking that he was actually going to turn back to the light. You could tell in his demeanor that he was playing Han. Maybe there is an element to him still mustering up the strength to kill his father (he is conflicted) but in order to be genuine when he asked for help and it not to be some sadistic bastard move, would be for him actually be honest with Han. "Dad, I don't know what to do. Snoke has asked me to kill you but I don't know if I can do it". Instead he implies that he needs help to to return to the light when in fact he is plotting to kill Han so he can turn to the fully dark. When I first saw the film I thought he was actually buying time as well - waiting for the Star Killer to destroy the sun so it was ready. Those tears dry up pretty quickly and again in a sadistic way, he says "Thank you". I mean, he'd have to have gone brain dead to think that Han wanted to help him do that and then mean thank you in a nice way!

 

the VD actually doesn't say that. and his title as "Jedi Killer" could be ascribed to any number of things (primarily his assignment to kill Jedi, of which we have no confirmation and for which we know Luke is the last). while that could suggest he killed the others, we just don't know.

i don't get that read on the bridge scene at all. i can definitely see what you're saying about why not just tell Han: i've been told to kill you. but i think that's part of his emotional/psychological weakness/dissonance--whatever you want to call it. the first thing he says to Han when he starts to break down is: "it's too late". so i agree that mentally he's on a path that he thinks he can't turn from, but i still see his surrender as genuine: he's meeting Han (literally) halfway there. he just doesn't make it across.

he's in pain. Han tries to say: come home and everything will be all right. he wants to believe that, but he really has no reason to (he can't trust it--why would he?). Snoke has convinced him that the pain will stop if he kills Han. Snoke has convinced him of a lot of things. if you take the act itself out of the picture and just look at the motive, he's just asking Han to help him stop hurting. he's being completely self-absorbed and cowardly. there's no arguing that.

and i'm not even arguing that he doesn't intend to kill Han, i'm just saying it's not a ruse. he's not "playing" Han by expressing his fear/conflict/confusion. he doesn't imply that he'll turn to the light in some false way because there's a part of him that genuinely wants to.

and i don't get any hint of sadism in his "thank you". your comment about being brain dead sorta maybe makes my point: Kylo Ren has no mind of his own. he's Snoke's dog. if he in any way actually understood the consequences of what he was doing, he would have drawn power/strength from it, but he didn't. he's that deluded and everything about him in TFA demonstrates it.