I'm so disappointed.. by the fans

I think the themes are all there, but sadly they are not developed in TLJ. It is a 2 1/2 hour movie of bloat that never holds together.

We all waited 2 years to see what you are talking about in terms of mythology with Luke/Rey and Kylo/Snoke, and all we get is them relegated to secondary roles in some respects to a Casino story with Finn/Rose that was absolutely uneccessary. It was frustating to watch this movie as everytime it started to build up any sort of development with Rey/Luke or Kylo/Snoke, boom, we go back to Finn/Rose or Poe/Leia/Hux.

Themes and Drama can only work if you develop the characters and we get to know them. We never really get to know Luke/Rey on Achtu as she just pesters him, and that's it. RJ could have really explored those themes you are talking about, but it just missed the mark. The same goes for Rey vs Ren as those scenes where they were talking to each other at the start of the movie were very intriguing, but it goes nowhere. Ren tells her she is a nobody later, and they goto the next big battle scene.

TLJ fell into the trap of most modern day blockbusters, as it was obsessed with time of the movie and constant action worrying people would get bored. There is no reason that movie couldn't have clocked in at 2 hours, as there were too many characters, and too many stories going on. ESB is simple because EVERY part of the movie is relevant: Luke trains with Yoda, and Han/Leia are pursued by Vader. Those 2 stories come together on Cloud City, and then it really delves into the mythology and drama with 'I am your father' and Han being frozen in Carbonite. This movie was zig zagging back and forth and like we were watching seperate movies. Luke/Rey, cut to Finn/Rose, cut to Hux/Leia/Poe, cut to Snoke/Kylo Ren, it was just too much and the message and themes are just lost. Let some of these scenes play out, but sadly RJ choose to make it more like a Michael Bay movie.

Sorry, but this was a big disappointment, just like most modern day blockbusters. The key to this genre is pacing, as all of the classic blockbusters like Star Wars, Jaws, Raiders of the Lost, The Terminator had zero bloat, and were able to tell a great story and have good character development in 2 hours. This was 2 1/2 hours and is a total mess.

 

Brilliant post.

However I personally dont think JJ will retcon anything I think he and RJ will have worked together on IX more than we think. If I'm correct I believe the script for IX is already written.

 

People seem to forget that JJ was the executive producer and completely in line with TLJ. There will be no "ret-conning" because TLJ wasn't a mistake, regardless of how people feel about it.

If you just think about it for a minute, this "break" from the Skywalker formula was bound to happen and some fans were bound to be disappointed by it. I actually feel that this movie is very aware of this fact: Kylo repeating "let the past die", Luke saying "do you think I'll grab a laser sword and take the First Order alone?" and Snoke being killed in a way that makes it impossible for people to still fantasize he is something else (he basically became a wrinkly meat stroganoff).

Anyways, my point is that for Star Wars movies to keep happening, the break from the "Skywalker redemption formula" needed to happen as they wouldn't be able to keep repeating it forever. Maybe it would have pleased fans more to have a conservative ST and holding on this bold step for after it, but I somehow think it wouldn't end well.

Anyways, I liked it a lot and I'm generally in sync with the OP. It's a bum that a part of the fan base still wanted the formula to be repeated and it blows my mind a bit that some people think that Rey not being a Skywalker somehow taints this trilogy - but I respect their opinion.

I'm personally excited by all new possibilities we have by dropping the formula - and we will always have that formula to look back in the OT.

It's like Rian said in an interview to EW, if he had said Snoke is Darth Plagueis (as an example), Rey would just go "Darth who?".

 

It still is about the skywalker family. The villain plays as big a role as the hero and kylo ren is anakins grand son. Only now the skywalker bloodline is on the other side. So all the complaining that they threw away the skywalker story, they didn't. After all the whining TFA was a rehash of ANH, you'd think straying from the obvious wouldn't get bashed by so many people. They made things less predictable, and still maintained the skywalker part. I'm thrilled with the result. And they're still gonna make billions on episode 9, no matter how many people don't wanna give Disney their money any more, about which none of you are fooling anyone. The prequels didn't send you away, don't kid yourselves that TLJ will. You'll be here in 2 years complaining it was too different, too much the same, or too something else.

 

Hated it on the first viewing, hated it more on the second viewing. No its not because of "theories" or whatever trite immature dismissive language seems to be going around. I just thought the story was garbage and the characters were either out of character or did silly things. The shot where rose talks about saving what you love was especially hilarious given the fact that the giant laser she just saved from destruction is now about to blow open the door which will lead to the end of the rebels.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 18, 2017 ---

Everyone has to agree with you. Being happy about something on your own doesn't seem to be enough for a lot of folks.

 

Yes he did. Saying he's disappointed in fans because he thinks they aren't smart enough to understand TLJ is CONDESCENDING. All you TLJ apologists out there need to quit ignoring the obvious fatal flaws with this train wreck. Terrible humor, cringe inducing new characters, horrible asthmatic and plot on Canto, ridiculous Mcguffin of a slow speed chase, and on and on ect. And worst of all ignoring literally every mystery teased in TFA. Was there a few good parts of TLJ? Sure, but not enough to call this stinking holdo pile a good movie.

 

I've been disappointed with the fan reaction to the Finn/Rose story. Can't tell you how many people I've heard complaining that it doesn't go anywhere. But that's the whole point. The movie is subverting our expectations to comment on the dangers of brazen heroics, like we saw with Poe in the opening. They're story goes nowhere because it's about failure, and learning from failure.

 

I disagree that TPM didn’t alienate fans. That movie made 431 domestically in 1999 dollars, and AOTC made only 310 million in 2002 dollars, so that’s about a 35% drop. I still have friends who saw TPM and didn’t see another SW movie until TFA.

And it’s isn’t just about seeing it once, it’s the repeat business from the fans like us. I saw TFA 4 times, and saw TLJ once and that’s enough for me. So this stuff all adds up. Obviously SW movie will always make $$$ cause it’s such a big fanbase, but don’t be fooled that a backlash won’t effect the next film.

 

Yeah, except we already learned the dangers of brazen heroics when he sent the entire bombing fleet to their deaths. We don't need a useless subplot to emphasize the consequences the audience just saw on screen.

 

You do realize you just did the exact same thing you accused the OP of, in your very next sentence?

 

My feeling on snoke has nothing to do with nobility. I didn't like the character in TFA. I'd hoped that the next guy would seize an opportunity to make him interesting, compelling, and dangerous while setting him apart from an emperor retread. I also thought we were gonna get some much needed lore expansion with him. When he started cuckling and having an "i'm awesome party", i started to slump. Then when he was hilariously killed off, i was like "........ok...so this guy rian johnson really doesn't have any ideas.". Kylo being irredeemable was something I thought was made clear after he killed han solo. I didn't have an issue at all with luke, rey, and leia stating as much. Just because some of us thought the movie was garbage doesn't mean its because we "worship nobility". That accusation is a little silly when made in the defense of a film where only white people can be "magic".

 

Perhaps we as an audience don't. But the characters still needed to learn this lessen and I, for one, found the moment of their absolute failure (when DJ betrays them and the First Order attacks the transports) to be absolutely gut wrenching. Don't forget, it's the failure of their subplot that leads to the deaths of so many Resistance fighters. It's their failure that forces Holdo to fly her ship into Snoke's ship.

Their failure has huge consequences and, in their actions on Crait, we see that they learned from it.

 

Luke's attitude in this movie reminds me of people brought up in strict religious upbringings, then as adults they come to the realization that it was all a bunch of bullsht, that anyone can experience God, not just strict adherents to the rigid dogma. He realizes exactly what I did after seeing the prequels - the Jedi hierarchy were a joke -they were incompetent and let a monster take over the galaxy due to their inexcusable blindness and allowing Anakin be trained, ignoring their own warnings of grave danger.

 

JJ is good at setting things up and introducing things, but closing a Trilogy is much harder because you HAVE to answer all questions.

After reading everything JJ, RJ and Disney are literally making this up on the fly so we can guarantee many things that get answered in Episode 9 will make zero sense just like TLJ.

 

Did rose know that luke was gonna show up as a hologram? No. Just like nobody knew what holdo's plan was so they went on some secret mission that not only ended up being pointless, but got holdo and hundreds of rebels killed. Thats bantha poodoo writing. The hyperdrive kamikaze was an awesome scene. The problem is RJ only wanted that scene to go down and wrote a sloppyass story to get to it. Of course if she simply tells poe her plan, then we have a movie where everyone is pretty much sitting on some ships for a unexciting slow chase through space. Which...means theres a problem with the premise of your story.

 

The big difference is no matter how many people want to exaggerate and say TLJ is as bad as TPM, the response is quite different. TLJ is divisive. Although there's plenty who don't like it, there's also plenty that loved it. TPM never had the positive reaction the pro TLJ have, pretty much universally panned by fans and critics alike. The best I ever hear about it is it's ok or a bad star wars movie is still better than most other movies, or "I don't hate it as much as I used to". I guess it's fitting in an era of the most divisive politics and causes in all our lifetimes, star wars would be too