SPECULATION Romance - who falls for who in VIII?

Your statement would be true if you are assuming that Rey is being trained in the same Jedi code that we say in the Prequels. In TLJ trailer, there is a lot alluding to the end of the Jedi (as well as the title). To me, this means that Luke is no longer teaching those ways, and is instead finding a new path, maybe one that isn't as strict on relationships? Since that rule is more or less what caused his father to snap and kill a bunch of younglings.

 

i completely agree with this!
i was only talking about theories/speculation.
if we're talking about what we hope and wish for:
i hope Luke embodies the perfection of jedi asceticism, but absolutely doesn't teach it as necessary to a jedi life.

 

Dang I need to watch the BTS reel again - totally missed Hux! Well, maybe the hair = more subdued Kylo? Let's see what the rain on Achoo does to it Maybe he'll throw his cape over his head and scream something about "Frizzies!! NOOOO!!"

Yeah. My point is not in a more "feminine" or "romantic" direction *with regards to visual styling, specifically.* I expect her personality/demeanor/etc to shift noticably in a more "mature" direction, though.

Luke and Leia were twins, no Force bond...

Force connections, recognizing family members, etc is, canonically, a very iffy, inconsistant concept.

Wonder when the Kylo-Rey bond was formed? He seems to actually *see* her in that one Forceback...

I think the bond will help, but it's important that it's not just Rey who understands Kylo - the viewer has to, as well. It would be FAR easier to utilize the bond to convey that sort of info and understanding in a novel. Much more complex in a movie. I'm expecting Forcebacks. I'm also expecting that Rey will be able to tell when Kylo is being truthful with her.

Compassion, I'm sure. But compassion and emotional closeness do not necessarily go hand and hand. One can feel compassion for someone one despises, as well. For example, irl, I might feel compassion for a serial killer because he was abused as a child, but even so I'd believe that guy should get every ounce of justice that's coming to him, even if I think he should be imprisoned for life instead of executed as a result of my compassion.

I'm sure Rey and Kylo will end up working together, and each will end up seeing something of the other in themselves. But real friendship, something more? Perhaps if this were a tv series with enough narrative space to really develop that.

But as it is, the story is following not only Rey and Kylo and their relationship, but Finn, Poe, Luke, Leia, Rey's relationship with Luke, Luke's relationship with Kylo, and (hopefully!) a bit of Luke-Leia and Kylo-Leia. It's not quite an ensemble film but there isn't much narrative space to achieve the kind of development I feel is required to make such a romance work.

(Wholly aside from my belief that they're cousins, of course.)

 

true, dat. but neither of them knew they were FS either. seems like Ren has known a long time, though he feels the connection with Rey first too. so yeah, it's all up in the air.

if it is a bond it probably started with Rey's Forceback: she saw him and felt a vague sense of "recognition", then he saw her on Takodana and immediately knew there was more to her than meets the eye. this is more explicit in the novel on both sides. the movie seems to play it less overtly.

Ren is always truthful to her in TFA (ironically--and perhaps to his own detriment). it'll be interesting to see how they handle this. half the audience doesn't need to be convinced to save Ben. do the filmmakers actually care about the other half? some people won't change their minds no matter what Ren does. and part of the design of the character seems to be that his grievances are completely conflated--both his sense of entitlement and abandonment are equally in his head. rather than understand what got him there as if it's some excuse, i think the filmmakers are going to show him accept responsibility for his terrible choices, regardless of why he made them.

i think they could do it, but this is why i think this idea of Rey and Ben as a couple is six of one and half a dozen of the other.
i agree with you: the important thing is that they understand each other and take care of/support each other--anything beyond that isn't required for the story.
so i don't object to it, but also don't feel it's necessary--except maybe to perpetuate the Skywalker line and give Leia her much-desired grandbabies ~ hahahaha (and yes, i just reduced Rey to a brood cow and Ben to a breed stud. oh well). : D

the only way i can see it work is to have them close quarters in a way that they share experience and emotion that brings them together--then end the film on the possibility a relationship, rather than a whole lotta smoochy whatever. that keeps the saga open in a very fair way: fans can decide for themselves where the characters go and future writers/directors also have the option of picking their path in the future.

hahaha ~ who fathered Rey is the least interesting thing to me in this whole saga.

 

"George Lucas described Strange Magic as “Star Wars for a female audience stating ”Star Wars was for 12-year-old boys; I figured I’d make one for 12-year-old girls.“ On the film’s plot, director Gary Rydstrom stated, “We pitched it as a Beauty and the Beast story where the Beast doesn’t (physically) change.”

JJ Abrams in the audio commentary of TFA:

"You’re probably going to have a castle, and a prince and a princess, if you’re looking at a fairy tale. We wanted to give these sort of, fundamental, not cosmetic, but, sort of, prerequisite elements. These locations in which we can set our new story and our new characters.”

Beauty and the Beast by Disney vs. TFA:


Cinderella by Disney vs. TFA:



JJ Abrams "But in this scene (inside Maz's castle) Rey is drawn to this place (where the saber is), almost like Cinderella"





(Rey and Kylo meet in a very fairytale-esque forest near Maz's castle, just like the prince and the future princess in fairytales)



JJ Abrams "But when his mask comes off, you see Adam Driver, and he just looks like a sort of prince."

The prince in Beauty and the Beast 2017 by Disney:






All this coincidences are really interesting...

 

Yeah there are BatB parallels. They're using the trope.

Just not romantically. (See, Moana.) Rey and Kylo being Yin and Yang =/= romance, though it's often taken as such,

I mean, if ya wanna get into tropes, literary/textual analysis, narrative structure, etc etc, we could totally go there... Because they really REALLY support Rey Skywalker.

 

they support either. that's why this discussion even exists.

a lot hinges on whether you see sexual tension or attraction between the characters in TFA.
if you do? no chance they're related and high possibility of a romantic arc.
if you don't, likely she's a Skywalker and they'll save the galaxy as cousins.
and then there's those strange people who think Ren is giving her the sexy creep eye and yet still believe she's a Skywalker--which i find very confusing and disturbing. hahaha ~ : D

it's fair to say there are tons of fairy tale elements in TFA. not all fairy tales are romantic (though many are).
so i see possibilities, but no hard evidence here pointing necessarily at any one absolute answer.

 

Where in all those films did the "beast" get all predatory, make thinly veiled threats about taking what he wants, after slipping her a roofie (force paralysis and knock out).

Soo romantic. #rapey

 

to be fair, in most versions of the story, he is quite terrible to her at first.
just the fact of abducting her, plying her with fancy things, and flying into a rage when she refuses to behave as he wants is pretty nasty.

even in the relatively cleaned up Disney version, he holds her hostage, threatens her family, yells, and breaks a lot of things.

it's kind of the point of the story.

 

He doesn't hold her hostage.
She volunteers to be his prisoner.

 

under a threat against her father.
seriously. it's not remotely okay.

 

I personally think the only romance we are going to see is Finn and Rose. Disney and Lucasfilms has made it clear they are really trying to show strong female leads in their movies/shows, and I think we are going to end the trilogy with Rey being a strong, independent female character.

I also do believe that Kylo is going to develop feelings for her, and he will ultimately sacrifice himself in order to save her at the end of episode 9. Just a theory I have though.

 

Every piece of evidence I've seen cited for Rey+Kylo is consistant with ReySky. I can't say the same for all evidence supporting ReySky.

Yes. If you see it as sexual tension, of course you won't believe they're related, no matter what. Which is why I don't really expect to convince those fans. Sexual tension, to me, is by far the most legit argument I've seen Reylos (I don't mean that pejoratively btw!) make. I mean, dude, if I saw sexual tension there...ReyLo confirmed as far as I saw it! I don't think "sexual tension" is a crazy argument to make, in the context of the Rey+Kylo scenes alone. I may not agree that that was JJ's intent but...he's made a few other TFA directoral decisions that made me go WTF? as a viewer.

The problem is, a great deal of what is described as sexual tension has very legitimate alternative explanations, which, imo, are made more compelling when the whole is taken into account - the actual (dialogue) text of the script, the relationship focuses we've seen and know about, the surrounding context of LFL's goals with the ST, the character styling, the marketing emphasis, certain imo very telling comments about "Reylo" made by Daisy and Matt Martin, mirroring scenes in TFA, archtypes carried over from the OT, etc etc.

ReySky has an all-encompassing "theory of the ST" - structure, themes, direct connections (not just callbacks) to Eps 1-6, etc. In the context of ReySky, the "mystery box" makes a ton of sense. I cannot say I've seen fans make such a case for Reylo, although if there's something I've missed I'd love to read it. I've read a variety of REALLY well-written Reylo metas, but they've all been narrowly-focused and haven't addressed how Reylo explains broader aspects of the ST thus far.

True! "Fairy tale" is a VERY broad, rather vague term. As is GL's notorious, oft-cited "It's like poetry - it rhymes." And I very much doubt LFL/the directors literally grafted entire fairy tale plots into the ST!

Re competing Rey parentage theories, I see it this way - out of the few plausible theories, which one seems the most likely given the available evidence? That, imo, is how the theories should be judged. Just becauase a theory *may* be true doesn't mean it's necessary the most likely outcome.

Not that there's a law requiring fans to accept only the most likely outcome! But when fans argue against opposing theories for which evidence is presented by simply saying something to the effect of "But you don't know that for a fact!" the whole debate breaks down. Because "You don't know that for a fact" simply isnt a legit counter on a speculation thread.

(Btw I am not at ALL accusing you of making that argument!! ^_^; I'm speaking based off of other experiences. I'm just frustrated at this point because I'm not seeing counter-arguments that I feel legit challenge my theories. Well, actually, I *have* been convinced of certain weaknesses in my theories and have reconsidered accordingly, but not via forum debate.)

I must end by saying that I really like how you discuss Kylo. Speaking for myself, the way you talk about him makes me more inclined to think about him from other perspectives Frankly, I think Kylo's eventual redemption, and at least *done* degree of forgiveness, is *vital* to the themes, goals, etc of the ST, whether one thinks - at the moment - that he deserves it or not.

 

He shouldn't have been stealing.
But the point is, she's not a hostage.
That implies he has demands that will lead to her release.

 

that's not an argument ~ hahahaha

sorry, but it's really not.

right: if you see it, you can't unsee it. and if it's there, then there's nothing standing in the way of a Rey and Ben relationship developing.

i think it's just as likely a Force bond as it is a sexual attraction, but i have to seriously question the nuance of that. why set up a Revan/Bastilla-looking dynamic only to make them cousins? and watered-down cousins at that because they have no actual concrete family relationship if they never knew each other (sorry, all the mind-wiping in the world is never going to happen in Star Wars; it's a huge cop-out). anyway, to me, it feels weak as a choice in terms of stakes.

it's also kinda boring, frankly. i mean, i get people like the idea and want it, but however it may satisfy a certain level of "poetry" or symmetry, etc. it's not very exciting. it's also especially not exciting for the casual fan--Star Wars isn't just made for people like us who dissect it to ever nth. it's made to invite new fans, to excite people who haven't cared about Star Wars before. those fans don't care at all about Rey Skywalker--they just want to see a thrilling story. maybe Rey Skywalker can be thrilling, but again, in terms of dramatic conflict, i find it really not very interesting. Rey basically accepts the "crown" of the OT and...okay. yay?

this is why i root for scrappy Rey the outsider who carves her own name into this legend. and before you say: well, essentially she is, then i ask: then why on earth does she need to be a Skywalker? she doesn't. and given the degree of screwed-upness in the Skywalker family, i think it would be way more interesting for her to come in, help them clean up their mess and infuse the family with the stability it so desperately needs.

but...we don't know anything for a fact. hahahaha
i mean, i enjoy the debate to a certain degree because i love the exchange of ideas, but when people put their foot down and say the evidence points more definitively to this or that, then i'm out. because everything is on the table until the film credits roll.

when you say a Rey & Ben relationship needs to explain the "broader aspects of the ST", i challenge you to tell me why.

and then i further offer that their duality is the Light and Dark and their relationship (which must be consummated in some fashion) is what defines the balance.
furthermore i submit that balance is the endgame here. and that Rey and Ben have more in common with Jen and Kira in the Dark Crystal (for corn's sake, even their names--if we go by Rey's original development name), than even more traditional fairy tales.

i mean, how much more Star Wars can you get? does it have to be a romance? no, of course not, which is why i fence-sit. but can a romance be deeply satisfying? does a romance somehow betray Star Wars even though the PT was driven (in part) by one, and the OT allowed us to see another develop? does a romance have to tear Rey down/insult womanhood?

thanks! and i appreciate that you understand that Star Wars is about hope, and that redemption is an essential part of this. Ben deserves redemption because everyone does. but he has to do the work too.

no, there is no negotiating, which makes it even worse.

 

In the cartoon BatB, Maurice doesn't steal anything...

And is there any version of BatB (aimed at kids, that is) where the Beast is actually a murderer? Like, has done *objectively* horrible things?

I imagine that Disney's BatB movies may have gone over a bit differently had the Beast been more Kylo-esque in his behavior, even if against characters other than Belle. I mean, in TFA he is *intended to be a villain* JJ and Kasden have flat-out confirmed this. Beast is never really framed as a *villain* in BatB.

Also note that Beast's "redemption" in BatB and Belle's relationship with him are what BatB focuses on almost exclusively. The Beast's arc + romance with Belle feel believable because a ton of narrative space is given over to them. That's simply not the case in the ST. It's telling that the relationship that's the "beating heart" of the movie that represents the drsmatic high point of the ST isn't Rey-Kylo but Rey-Luke.

 

Yeah I don't see any romance the moment its mentioned it turns from interrogation in which Rey gets the upper hand to would be rapist fails but apparently she likes it.

 

I hope they is no main focus romances in the ST, id rather ha
ve them build friendships through experience in Wartime.

 

it doesn't need to be so weighted on either end of the spectrum.

what i see potentially (and what others see perhaps), is mutual curiosity despite their antagonism, and later, on Ren's side, a desire to possess that doesn't have to be rapey. it strikes me as absolutely privileged, but also largely ignorant of how to behave under the circumstances.
because of this i absolutely see why people compare this to Beauty and the Beast on certain terms.
Ren (or Ben) needs to learn how to get along with other people. he's always been in a class entirely his own most likely.
Rey is probably the first real peer he's ever considered.

and i stress peer, because i don't see him as thinking of her as a sex-object so much as a possible playmate/companion (which again, could work romantically as much as platonically).

 

"The Red String of Fate also referred to as the Red String of Marriage, and other variants, is an East Asian belief originating from Chinese legend.

The two people connected by the red thread are destined lovers, regardless of place, time, or circumstances. This magical cord may stretch or tangle, but never break. This myth is similar to the Western concept of soulmate or a destined flame."

Folklore

One story featuring the red string of fate involves a young boy. Walking home one night, a young boy sees an old man (Yue Xia Lao) standing beneath the moonlight. The man explains to the boy that he is attached to his destined wife by a red thread. Yue Xia Lao shows the boy the young girl who is destined to be his wife. Being young and having no interest in having a wife, the young boy picks up a rock and throws it at the girl, running away. Many years later, when the boy has grown into a young man, his parents arrange a wedding for him. On the night of his wedding, his wife waits for him in their bedroom, with the traditional veil covering her face. Raising it, the man is delighted to find that his wife is one of the great beauties of his village. However, she wears an adornment on her eyebrow. He asks her why she wears it and she responds that when she was a young girl, a boy threw a rock at her that struck her, leaving a scar on her eyebrow. She self-consciously wears the adornment to cover it up. The woman is, in fact, the same young girl connected to the man by the red thread shown to him by Yue Xia Lao back in his childhood, showing that they were connected by the red string of fate."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate





Another coincidences !