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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO FEEL MIXED ABOUT THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Talon Karrde, Dec 16, 2017.

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  1. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Ha! No bait from me though – I couldn't remember which posters said they were up to discuss the merits (or lack of) but thought you were one.
    I like how those in the “haters” thread are tolerant and don't slap me with trolling ratings when I fail to keep my mouth shut! :rolleyes:

    I'll try and answer your questions quickly and honestly off the top of my head before reading on.

    Rey weaknesses

    Depending on uncertain return of family (could also be a strength - patience).

    Poe weaknesses
    Cocky (could also be a strength - self-assurance/bravery).

    Finn weakness
    Also kinda cocky.

    Luke weaknesses (from OT)
    Prone to anger.
    Impetuousness.

    Kylo weaknesses
    Temper (could also be a strength for darksiders)
    Internal conflict.
    Compassion (overcame?).
    Obsession with “the girl”.
    Superiority complex.
    Indoctrination.
    Hmmmm. I guess Rey's wasn't depending on her family to return so much in TLJ as a general uncertainty and depending on her family to define herself. I thought it was exploited ok in TLJ.

    Most of the others seem to line up alright too accept maybe Finn who (like Poe) I didn't see much weakness in at all during TFA.
    I thought Finn was probably the bravest/strongest in my view by overcoming indoctrination without magical powers.

    But these exploiting character weaknesses were things I thought TLJ was strongest in (and paid attention too after Mary Sue discussions) while the short comings lay elsewhere for me. I may be missing things though.
    Ha, fair enough. Forget that language then.
    In my own words...I thought Rey and Kylo were both lead characters in the story so it would make sense that the plot and characters arcs would often revolve around Kylo.
    I agree that he's a villain for sure.
    But since I saw TLJ and read these definitions online I've also been seeing Kylo as an anti-villain:

    TvTropes: Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil. Alternatively, their desired ends are evil, but far more ethical or moral than most villains and they thus use fairly benign means to achieve it, and can be heroic on occasion.

    Urban Dictionary
    : An anti-villain is an antagonist who isn't purely evil nor entirely unsympathetic.

    Maybe it's a subjective reading depending on the viewer but I agree TLJ made an effort in parts to portray him as sympathetic in order to sell some story beats.
    Fair enough. I don't agree but can understand why people take issue with the direction.

    I do agree with how un-Jedi it was.
    I can imagine Luke not seeing himself as a Jedi after that night.

    I also read Luke projecting some of his own self-disgust onto the Jedi Order in TLJ.
    There may be some truth to some of his conclusions about Jedi actions past but I think a lot of his talk is intellectualizing his cognitive dissonance and avoiding his pain until Rey forces him to face his demons.
    Fair call. I could consider this a shortcoming in TLJ.
    TLJ identified and exploited her greatest weakness but she could have a few more.

    Getting slapped around by an old man isn't the same as a good maiming!

    Rey vs Old Man.gif

    Sure - new elements not exhibited before have been introduced.
    I guess I don't really see how it's possible to expand on a character without doing so.

    For me the only reasonable criteria for doing it would be that it adds drama to the story yet remains in line with what we already know.
    I thought Poe was a little 2D in TFA so don't really see this as a negative although I do get your original point now.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by “artificially” but I thought Finn was fleeing in TLJ to protect Rey.
    He relinquishes his link to Rey (with the heaviest look of solemn responsibility) and joins the Resistance because, as he tells Poe, he realizes it's the best chance to save "the Resistance and Rey".

    It illustrates his growth from his “it's the right thing to do” lie to Poe in TFA into the real deal.
    He comes to this ethical realization on his own just like he did with the others you mention.
    Rose just enlightens more perspective to his resolve on Canto Bight.

    Anyways sorry about the length.
    I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts.
    It's much more interesting discussing SW with people who think differently and I've already been schooled in a thing or two from your response. :)

    edit:grammar
     
    #41 Moral Hazard, Mar 31, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  2. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    @Moral Hazard I have a really lengthy reply to your post but I'm going to have to go back and proof read it first and see if I can trim some of the fat. I did see your reply however and wanted to acknowledge it. Also:

    I also read Luke projecting some of his own self-disgust onto the Jedi Order in TLJ.
    There may be some truth to some of his conclusions about Jedi actions past but I think a lot of his talk is intellectualizing his cognitive dissonance and avoiding his pain until Rey forces him to face his demons.


    Great analysis here. I'm switching the post from "Like" to "Great Post" for this bit of analysis alone.
     
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  3. Jayardia

    Jayardia Rebel Commander

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    AAC904A3-628D-45EB-AC82-847C429C160F.jpeg F2E3E7E7-B793-4B1C-8EC5-E6E14647C2D4.jpeg My absolute favourite “characters” of the film. Tallie (Tallissan Lintra / A-wing Pilot) in particular had me practically foaming at the mouth.

    Why?

    Pretty simple. I was always a fan of the “backburner” pilots. Playing “Star Wars” while running about on playgrounds of the 1980’s, I always wanted to be Wedge.
    As a teen/tween, I LOVED flying A-Wings in the X-Wing Combat Flight Simulator. ...So much fun.

    ...These days I’m also thrilled with subtly strong, but humble female characters- particularly in Sci-fi.

    Combine those factors, and you’ll have much of what I absolutely *loved* about this movie.

    The dour & curmudgeonous Luke, the space battles, *Chewbacca*, the final projected Luke/Kylo showdown, and ... Benicio Del Toro’s “DJ” character were all fantastic (for me).

    None of the other characters were very appealing. (Sometimes I quite enjoyed Leia’s dialogue.) I don’t find myself drawn to Poe at all, or Finn. I’m kinda neutral about Rey, and Kylo’s character doesn’t appeal much, despite my appreciation of Adam Driver himself.

    I want to enjoy the film more. For me, there was a platform available for much better character paths and storytelling overall to happen, and generally lesser paths were chosen. It struck me as a hollow, awkward, and (mostly) banal storyline.

    I’m MUCH more taken with the peripheral storylines taking place in the Star Wars universe. Still a big fan- looking forward to the stuff coming down the pipe.
     
    #43 Jayardia, Apr 1, 2018
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  4. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    @Moral Hazard The following is a wall of text. I apologize for the length. This is just my view on some of the characters.

    If I'm being entirely fair, it's impossible for me to lay all of what I perceive as problems in TLJ a Rian's feet. I asked about what weaknesses you thought each character had, because I'm not entirely sure they really introduced any that come at a cost to the characters. So when I read Johnson say he was planning to exploit their weakness, my immediate thought was huh?

    FOR POE
    The original text I read, I only recall saying that he would challenge them (and he wouldn't necessarily need much of a set up from TFA to do that) but weaknesses? Those should have showed up in TFA for Rian to explore more in the next episode. Because they don't exist for Poe, he invents them. You are correct that he didn't have much depth in TFA because originally he wasn't supposed to survive the Episode (and so there was no need to flesh him out). If from a logistical stand point you'll forgive the reinvention of Poe because it's necessary to add depth, I could live with that, if (and here's my specific condition) they put together a more thoughtful reason for the Cold War with Holdo (and her subsequent refusal to share her plan with Poe). For example if they had added just a snippet of dialogue at the opening of the movie that the Resistance is actually surprised that the F.O. locates their base as quickly as they did it would raise an in-story specter that there is a traitor. And if Holdo mentions Poe being mind probed by Kylo and questioning if he could be trusted, not only have a tie back to TFA, we would have an organically generated reason why Holdo wouldn't share information with Poe. She believes he may be compromised. Then both sets of actions seem justified (her witholding information and Poe responding by launching his own mission).

    Having acknowledged there wasn't much in the way of a flaw given to Poe, I would go for his weakness being "a need to be in control" in part because it doesn't conflict or contradict with any of the footage in TFA. It could also partially stand as a reason why he's so good as a pilot, it's a position in which he can most directly impact the outcome of a situation he is in (as opposed to sitting on the bridge of a Capital Ship) and so he has obsessed with mastering it. It would also serve to explain why he might be especially susceptible to insubordination when Holdo doesn't share her plan.

    FOR LUKE
    Luke's weakness during/after the ROTJ is his belief in the Jedi way. Admittedly when they introduced Lor San Tekka into the movie and that he was with a Church of the Force (and also Chirrut Imwe in R1), I thought it was a brilliant set up for how they were going to show how people believed in the Jedi and didn't question their doctrine and see that it was faulty. If they really wanted to subvert Luke, all they had to do was pull the Jedi rug out from underneath him. But Rian didn't merely want to pull the rug from underneath him, the subversion was a necessary ingredient for the empathy of Kylo. If Kylo merely turns despite Luke's best efforts to train him, you don't empathize with Kylo you empathize with Luke. If Luke however wrongs Kylo, then you can empathize with him. There is no way to empathize with Kylo, seeing what he has already done in TFA, unless he has been wronged somehow also. So it's not that I think Rian hated Luke, but I don't think he thought he could sell an emapthetic Kylo without making Luke the instrument of his wrong doing.

    FOR KYLO
    Speaking of Kylo, his weakness is his rampant insecurity. It is a ravenous black hole that is eating everything from the inside out and destroying everything around him. Snoke corrupting and controlling him almost seem like a foregone conclusion, in retrospect he may have been even more vulnerable than Anakin. The irony for me, was that I actually felt bad on behalf of Kylo, more for his depiction in TFA than TLJ. When he struck down Han, you could tell that he knew almost instantly that he had made a terrible mistake; looking at Driver depict Kylo, you can almost see him realizing his mistake and denying it at the same time just with one look. The peace he had been led to believe would be his once he destroyed his past was NOT to be found. In TLJ he seems more like a sociopath than a misguided youth. His speech to Rey after the throne room battle seemed situationally tone deaf. I think Rian adds the dialogue by Leia (on Crait) to make sure we get the last subversion (i.e. the redemption of Ben). Ben is gone; all that's left is Kylo.

    REY'S WEAKNESS
    Rey's weakness (I believe) is her innocence
    (which only strengthens the arguments of her being a Mary Sue). Her weakness is simultaneously a virtue. She believes the best of people with or without warrant. She believes her parents are coming back, she believes Han can be a father figure to her, she believes Finn is a Resistance Hero, she believes Luke can save the galaxy, she believes Ben can be turned, she believes the best of people without any evidence to corroborate it. But as I mentioned previously, there is no personal cost to her weakness other than disappointment (and I guess she also loses her LS in TLJ so there's that... that doesn't seem to be a big deal in SW). Luke was impetuous and impatient, he lost a hand because of it. Anakin was driven by the guilt of losing his mother and fear of losing anyone else, and it not only cost him limbs, it cost him his family (Luke's last ditch effort notwithstanding). Obi Wan was arrogant and condescending, and it cost him a brother (Anakin) and eventually his life during their last confrontation. Rey's misguided trip to the Supremacy still ends with Snoke's death and (minus a literal scratch on the arm) she is unscathed (physically and mentally). You could make the argument that in the end she overcomes her weakness because she is writing Ben off, no longer believing the best of him. But so what? How does that help her character? That was supposed to be her victory? She's gone from believing that Ben can be saved, to he can't be saved? Does that give Rey more depth? Is she going to continue to believe people are what they aren't? Where is the growth? Basically we see Rey learn that each person she has met isn't fully who they portrayed themselves to be. Is she just going to keep doing this indefinitely? When do we see her grow and change because of what she has learned?

    FOR FINN
    Now we come to Finn. Rian looks at Finn, and all his imagination can conjure is that:

    1. Finn's weakness is his attachment to Rey and
    2. Once he overcomes his challenge he can commit to the Resistance

    A Storm Trooper, taken from a family he doesn't know, who has broken with years of non-stop indoctrination, picked up a light saber against the Jedi Killer, and the most interesting trajectory Rian could come up with was for Finn to join the Resistance? Really? These strikes me as Rian being woefully uncreative or monumentally disinterested in really developing this character. The Canto Bight escapade is wasted screen time. And (for me) no amount of painting the bulleye around the bullet hole (a.k.a. The Texas Sharpshooter fallacy) will salvage this. It was one of the worst sub-plot in SW I have ever seen bar none (like someone mixed a goofy version of Cloud city with the Pod Racing of TPM) This is subjective obviously, some people may have loved the Fathier stampede and Canto Bight; they just happen to be wrong. LOL

    I think Rian's read on Finn is puzzling. His connection to Rey isn't a weakness to Finn, it was perhaps a weakness to the story Rian wanted to tell (can't effectively tease a Reylo angle if you have the Finn Rey interaction in the way). Finn's actual weakness was his pragmatism. He doesn't want to run from the FO in TFA simply because he's afraid; fear is the symptom, not the cause. He runs because he has done an assessment and he doesn't think the F.O. can be beaten. Because he leans so hard towards pragmatism, because he is so predicated on always having a strategy, he is capable of desperation but incapable of hope. Rey changes that for him. It is hope, not strategy and not pragmatism, that sends him after Rey on SKB. He goes into the fray without having all the answers of how they'll make it work, because Rey is worth him risking it all. Finn loves Rey. Whether it's eros, agape, or philos I'll let others speculate, but he loves her.

    But because Rian imagines that Finn's major evolution in TLJ is him choosing the Resistance, it feels like a 400 meter dash where TFA carries Finn 390 meters and TLJ stretches out the last 10 meters for 2.5 hours and calls it growth. I know that Finn hasn't officially chosen the Resistance at the end of TFA, but he is a short hop away from doing so, the suggestion that he needed the Canto Bight Wild Goose Chase to get there is a reach that isn't even worth entertaining IMO (especially since the sermonizing he was made to endure made a case against a problem that the Resistance wasn't even fighting - War Profiteering). I think that's what maddening about all this, we're told he needs the Canto Bight experience to choose the Resistance and nothing from the Canto Bight experience adds to the cache of the Resistance's cause and why Finn should join it (assuming that joining the Resistance was what a former storm trooper who didn't know his family would do first). Instead he gets a token fight against an even more under-used under developed character with an exploding background. The soda goes flat in less than 15 seconds however as Finn relies on a sneak shot on his adversary, who had already bested him, to procure an unearned victory, and stand aloft saying "Rebel Scum" while we cheer and ignore the unconnected dots. It was GOD - AWFUL (to me)
     
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  5. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Part 1...
    Yeah, Poe's an interesting case.
    He brings to my mind the X-Wing books and Corran Horn wrestling with the responsibilities of command and his desire to be in the cockpit where he feels he belongs.

    I guess Poe being the best pilot necessitates his presence within a squadron and probably restricts some duties and advancements in the Resistance hierarchy as a result.

    I love your idea of tying Holdo's refusal to share sensitive tactical info with a suspicion Poe may have been compromised during his interrogation. I guess, technically, a similar lapse in Resistance security culture does happens in TLJ when Poe, Finn and Rose discuss sensitive intel within earshot of DJ.

    I thought it was silly of Holdo to keep silent on all info but that she was smart not to confide in an unreliable subordinate like Poe.
    After the Force mind-probing events of TFA it seems wise that the top of the Resistance hierarchy would tighten security culture protocol and minimise the sharing of major strategic intel. Pilots risk being disabled and captured.

    Military procedure seems to promote self-confidence but restrict independent decision-making to a limited sphere and special operators for a reason.
    When free-thinking comes into conflict with direct and contemporary orders from someone higher in a military hierarchy it must take second place.
    Poe's lucky to have got away with a slap and a demotion after the stunt he pulled!
    When you got me thinking of weaknesses I was struck with how they can often be seen as strength too!
    Someimes It think it would take a similar reveal about Han wrongdoing to make Kylo sympathetic to some of the audience!

    Another option could have been some theological schism between Kylo and Luke about The Force or The Code.
    It would echo some of the Palpatine/Anakin story but probably wouldn't be as dramatic or suit visual storytelling.
    Yeah, the only time I thought he ever looked secure was fighting alongside Rey!
    He seemed in his element then, a man-child playing with his favorite toy. That's got to play on his mind.

    He's well practiced at breaking things now.
    Maybe he can finally break his cycle? :p
     
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  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Fair point, I thought it was silly for her to withhold the information. Even if they didn't go the direction that I mentioned earlier, since they were reinventing Poe anyway, they could also have Holdo tell Poe the plan and have Poe disagree vehemently. Holdo pulls rank and Poe decides to undertake the Rogue Mission. At least then you don't have the Holdo hiccup (which in the grand scheme of things, was not that big deal, just seems like an unnecessary nit against Holdo that didn't have to happen. For the record, I think they have Holdo not share the information because it was supposed to be playing up the idea that SHE was the one that was compromised/potential traitor. But I don't think it worked)


    A lot of them can, and I think armed with that you can tell a really interesting story if you always have a plausible motivation for each character's action influenced by that strength/flaw.

    I think Kylo comes off sympathetic in TFA... well until he stabs a Han Solo reaching out to him in a fatherly way. I think on first view, if you're a Han fan, you hate Kylo for this. If you watch the scene a few more times, you can see that conflict on his face because he was sure about what he was doing (just not sure if he had the strength to do it), and after he's done it, he's not sure about anything. He's questioning everything in that instance he kills Han.

    I think there were a number of ways to have Ben fall, but not a lot of ways to make him fall but still be someone you can empathize with. Someone on this forum (I can't remember who) put forth an idea (before the movie) that Rey and Ben were once students and that Rey was granted Anakin's as the heir apparent to lead the Jedi, and Kylo (already in a fragile state) took that as the ultimate rejection, that he wasn't seen as strong enough to claim his own grand father's LS. Of course, I still think if it happens that way, you don't empathize with Kylo (and just a note: I was never of the school of thought that it was necessary to empathize with him, understand him? Yes. Empathize. No. But that's the story Rian wanted to tell). So ultimately I think Rian decided to kill the legend of Luke to make Kylo capable of your empathy.

    I think he looks confident and secure after he killed Snoke. That was his challenge, usurping the Master. Once he did it, his doubt is over, his wavering is over, and that's why there's no more redemption possible. He fully commits, now when he kills his dad, but when he kills his master. Killing his father weakened him, killing his master strengthened him. A lot of people didn't like the slow LS turn... I thought it was one of the better scenes in illustrating that Kylo was more than a mindless Force tantrum waiting to happen. He was clever in how he out-thought Snoke. Anakin didn't outthink Sidious ever, he just used raw strength to throw him down a power shaft.
     
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  7. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    I like your analysis on Kylo Ren here and it's all I've read thus far, but you seem to have some good insight here.

    I see so few people mention the look on his face after he killed Han, so it was refreshing to see you mention it. Mostly I just see people say he's irredeemable because of this murder, but I always say internally "Did you not see his FACE afterward?". He definitely felt that he had done the wrong thing as soon as it was over.

    About Ben Solo being gone, however, you're forgetting Luke before their confrontation- "No one is ever really gone." I don't think he is. I think that's one of the main points of the ST.
     
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  8. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    Not everyone is like this of course, but a good chunk of people who love this movie get equally defensive as the annoying haters when you mention the idea of something being flawed.

    Some critics online, who are also friends of RJ, ignore the possibility of Canto Bight being a bloated subplot by saying that people who don’t like it don’t understand the important themes of the movie.

    I’m sure a lot of us get the themes that they are going for. For myself, I found the execution sloppy and very on the nose. Canto Bight feels like a city intended just for that message of “rich people bad” instead of a lived in world where we see a clearer dynamic(Cloud City).

    The other example is that Poe pulls a mutiny and gets a slap on the wrist despite undermining Holdo’s authority. I don’t understand how that’s good writing, it just felt contrived and hard to take this conflict seriously.

    Others will feel differently, but I’m sorry no matter what I don’t buy any situation where Luke contemplates murdering Ben Solo. The context that they gave me made it worse. His own uncle creepily sneaks into his nephew’s tent armed and ready. The information that they gave wasn’t enough and felt very vague/muddled.
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I think anyone who has watched the scene a few times, should note that his face says it all - he's made a mistake and he knows it and can't believe ALL at the same time. Another thing I noticed, when Han confronts his son on SKB you can even HEAR the Ben/Kylo struggle. Listen to their conversation and you can hear Ben talking at first, and moments later he tries to get back into the "Kylo" persona where he does this voice modulation that is flat and monotone ('i.e. his attempt at sounding balanced) when he says, "No, The Supreme Leader is wise". But he can't maintain it, Han's confrontation exposes how much he is in conflict.

    But this is part of why I think he shouldn't be redeemed. It took connecting with his parents, the source of his angst to even address the conflict and re-evaluate it. Both of his parents are gone now. There is no reason to revist and reassess his link to the light, no one to confront him that would make him emotionally vulnerable enough to do it.

    Further, while killing Han was clearly a mistake, and set him into upheaval (which Snoke noticed), he hesitated to kill Leia in space because he still wasn't committed to his destiny. He was committed by the time he had slain Snoke. After he kills Snoke he becomes THE "Big Bad" (which is another reason why I don't think he'll be redeemed). With no Snoke to betray in EPIX as part of a redemption, and with Hux being portrayed even less menacing and even more subordinate, the bad guy is Kylo.

    Luke also said he was there to "face Kylo" and that "he couldn't save him" and Leia responds she knows her son is gone. There are a few moments in the movie were Rian goes out of his way to drive a message home, Snoke being dead was one of them, and Kylo being gone was the other (IMO)
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 8, 2018 ---
    I'm 100% with you. That sub plot was not a matter of not "getting it", it was a matter of saying "your intention with this plot notwithstanding, it's bad, and it doesn't work"

    Exactly!!! I don't buy that he did it even for the "briefest of moments". It is completely and definitively outside of the character profile established for both him and Master Jedi. It just doesn't work.
     
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  10. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    It’s kind of like saying that after ROTJ, everything our heroes from the OT did meant nothing.

    Nothing Luke did after Jedi mattered because he trained 12 people and failed at it so he decided to go out to become a Loki hologram for two minutes to then die. (Don’t get me wrong, those two minutes were dope, but the rest of the film with Luke? meh).

    Han, despite growing and saving his best friend in the deadliest snow blizzard, responsibly taking out the shield generator didn’t give two hoots when his son became evil. He just took off and went F*ck it.

    Leia, well she remained the same, spoiled her son, but she at least lead a resistance.

    Essentially, the battle of Endor meant nothing because the remnants of the empire was the first order and now we’re back to empire vs rebels again.

    I am sorry, call me a fanboy, but if nothing they did in the OT resulted in anything long lasting or with impact, why should I care? So in Episode X, instead of the skywalker family are we going to come back in twenty years to focus on the Rey family?
     
  11. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Yes except then Rey will be an angry disgruntled distortion of what she was in ST for the sake of subversion... because, you know... subversion is genius. Can you tell I still hate subversion for subversion sake? LOL.

    Rian understood SW and how it needed to be expanded visually, he was the EXACT opposite when it came to the actual story telling. But then again, throwing the ST like this almost guaranteed that something like this was going to happen, JJ creating mystery boxes and not providing the answers as inputs into TLJ also exacerbated problems. I honestly feel like the overall story should have been written at once and together, and then leave it to the directors to make changes as necessary to fill in details and carry the story.

    But I agree, I find myself wishing the ST had nothing to do with the OT. The attempt to connect them together haphazardly came at the cost of compromising the OT characters. If this Trilogy had not been connected to the OT, both of them would have been better off.
     
  12. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    What if Kylo is groomed out from under Leia, Han, and Luke differently.
    I can't think of an equally dramatic way of explaining
    • why Luke has turned his back on his family and the Resistance
    • and why his apprentice came to see him and his family as threats that deserve death.
    I get the idea of a group of wealthy elites enjoying luxuries in a time of warfare.
    I'm not sure how you get such a generalizing message as “rich people bad” from a couple of scenes of high-rollers gambling in a casino.
    Maybe it's a resort planet without much more dynamic than what we see on screen.
    It's like seeing a scene of people eating in a restaurant frequented by weapons dealers, with some impoverished laborers up the road, and concluding “people who eat at restaurants are bad”!
    I don't know much about Han between movies but I do know parent's options are limited with a young adult who's made up their mind about something.

    Continuing to try and reason them around after a certain point risks entrenching their beliefs further and sabotaging the opportunity to leverage later or play support network in the future.

    Besides Han always was an opportunist who came around in the end.
    Nothing shows “giving two hoots” more than risking your life to try and save your son! ;)
    I feel differently and genuinely want to understand what's so hard to buy about this scenario! :D
    There has been a precedent of anger management issues...

    Luke.gif

    He always carry a weapon for self defense...

    Luke2.gif

    He has evidence his powerful nephew had plans to bring death to everything he loved...

    Luke3.gif

    at the same time the opportunity to give a quick end to Ben's pain and countless others arises.
    I'm left wondering what kind of heartless monster Luke would be not to consider the option in that moment!
    How so?
    This is a brand new lesson for Luke.
    He never had the opportunity to prevent so much pain and suffering before it came to pass.

    Besides, the guy is the head of a club with "guardians of peace and justice" on a plaque on the door.
    His specialty is the destruction of Dark-Force Users! :p
     
    #52 Moral Hazard, Apr 9, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  13. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    So you’re saying it’s ok for HAn to regress as a character.

    Also, Luke tried to redeem his father and didn’t want to fight initially. The whole pinot of that scene with Vader was that he was making a choice between following down his father’s path or not.

    Now he sees a 15 year old kid who might have dark tendencies, so rather than challenging the guy Snoke, you know the dude who is actually corrupting his nephew’s mind, he just decides maybe he should kill him.



    Canto Bight, the “rich people are bad” remark stems from everyone in tuxedos cheering as the animals are being mistreated and the salve children are working underneath. I get what the themes are but I found it very on the nose and the world itself not very well developed.
     

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  14. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Your thoughts about Kylo Ren are totally coherent and make sense, but I don't like the non-redemption outcome, personally. If Episode IX ends on a sour note for him, I'll be pretty disappointed.
     
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  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    That's not really what I mean but I wouldn't have an issue with a character returning to an earlier state if it wasn't a stretch.
    People do it all the time - particularly after traumatic experiences like break-ups or when your child joins an opposing militia! :p

    Han's got a history of running away from his problems and coming around in the end to do the right thing but he's also an opportunist.
    When a situation arises (and the story calls for it) he's not scared of acting - sometimes it means following his heart and doing the right thing.

    Just my opinion though.
    What I was saying above was that maybe we shouldn't be too harsh on the parents.
    Their options are limited when a young adult's dug their heels in.
    Sometimes you've got to let them go, be ready to support if needed, and hope they come around.
    Now he sees a dangerous kid who's heart has already turned to the dark, so rather than challenging Snoke who's a world away surrounded by an army, he contemplates for a second ending in his sleep the turncoat right in front of him who's bent on killing his family, friends and everything he holds dear. ;)
     
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  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I don't think any scenario works were ultimately Ben isn't wronged by somebody (if not Luke, somebody). It would be pretty easy to invent a plot device by which Luke was out of the fray and not assisting the Resistance (he wouldn't even have to turn his back on them). It's also pretty easy to invent a plot device by which Ben falls. There isn't, however, a scenario I can think of where you empathize with the fallen, that goes on to do great evil, if they aren't profoundly wronged in some way that leads, in part, to their fall. If he simply takes up his Red LS because he's disgruntled he comes off as petty, shallow, and entitled (and moreover, worthy of our scorn). I was fine with understanding Kylo's fall, but Rian's stated desire to have us empathize with him is honestly something I'll regard as one of the worst mistakes in the franchise's history specifically because the damage that it does to the other characters in the process had implications beyond the trilogy.

    Through out his life, both Jedi and Sith sensed great fear and anger in Anakin, Yoda, Dookou, Sidious... and yet no Jedi ever contemplated killing him (even knowing what he could potentially come based on this). To me that sets precedent for how Luke should have proceeded. But let's set that aside for now. Let's say that Luke wasn't ever a part of the council so he didn't know how they would have handled it and at no point did Yoda inform him during his training on Dagobah.

    Here is the question begging to be asked: what if Kylo hadn't woken up? When Luke decides not to kill Kylo - that plan was over. What was Luke going to do then? Knowing what he knew, was he simply going to sit back passively and allow Kylo to become what he envisioned? And if the answer is no, if he was going to take action of some sort (that didn't involve killing Kylo) that was more noble and more in-line with what you'd expect from a Jedi master and Luke then the immediate question is - "Well why didn't he just do THAT thing in the first place?" It's not like he didn't have suspicions, he knew there was a possibility.

    If we want to be real about it, Luke's greatest transgression in all this wasn't contemplating killing Kylo, it was contemplating it and not doing it. Yes, you read that correctly. Luke's greatest transgression was contemplating killing Kylo without doing it. None of it is the Jedi way, it never should have even been "on the table" as an option, but Luke somehow manages (through Rian's artistic vision), to create the thing that he feared without actually stopping it all while defying the common thread of his character in the OT; his belief in the good of people. I know someone might again be tempted to draw a parallel between this and Mace Windu's moment with Palpatine (he contemplated killing without actually doing it) but there are a number of differences that should dissuade you from that thread of analysis not the least of which was the fact that Ben's hands weren't bloody yet, Sidious' were.
     
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  17. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    Han going back to a smuggler is character regressing and an excuse for Abrams to have Han Solo fly the falcon. I buy a Han Solo who spends his time trying to hunt his son down to put him out because he is killing people and allows himself to die when he’s finally able to confront his son.

    Han basically told Jabba to f*ck off when he faced death at the Sarlaac. He went out in the deadliest snow storm to save Luke. Han showed growth. He wouldn’t run away if his son became a gang banger.

    For Luke, so you’re saying the guy who saw good in his child murdering father, who created genocide would think of looming over his nephew in his sleep and possibly think of killing him?

    Again, the backstory was vague and muddled.
     
  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I can understand that if you're a Ben fan or a Han fan (or both). Can you lay out how you think it would happen given what I have mentioned before? If necessary we can take this conversation to the Kylo thread. Just tag me in wherever you respond.
     
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  19. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    To be fair, I'm a newb here, so I'm not sure which Kylo thread you exactly mean! I'm not a crazed Reylo shipper, but I'd like to see love save him and that's plausible to me. The opposite of Anakin. I just want Ben Solo to come back and not die, tbh.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 10, 2018 ---
    Luke thinking about killing Ben and getting caught in the act was WAY out of character and a genuine misstep in the plot of this movie.
     
  20. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    The problem with Ben Solo coming back or redeeming himself now is that this series is “supposedly” trying to break free of the bloodline/skywalker importance but if Ben is redeemed, you’re just further capitalizing on this skywalker family being a royal bloodline because there is so much emphasis on Kylo Ren.

    This is why I wanted Snoke to be Plagueis. If the sith created anakin, then the chosen one never existed, ever. It was just a false prophecy that Jedi believed it, which was the cause of their downfall. But the fact that they’re keeping this notion that Anakin was still conceived by the force, even though in the PT, it was alluded that Plagueis created him, is bugging me and troublesome.
     
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