Thread for those who loved the movie

It certainly was the catalyst, but then there's the "treatment" of Luke; which set of more shockwaves then even Han's death.

 

Rey went from "you're a monster!" to "please be good again" after Kylo told her what really with Luke at the academy. She probably "saw" the same scene we did and felt all the deep conflict that started with Luke's "betrayal" and kept getting worse with killing Han etc.

 

i would be curious to know how many anti-Bens are anti-TLJ? or is there's any correlation there.

 

i get that some of it is holdover from people who don't want to let the Legends EU go; Ben is not Jacen and therefore etc.
and plenty of people absolutely deny Ben is a Skywalker (because, you know, names are important or something).
or worse yet, Ben is not only not a Skywalker, but someone else must be or else the whole thing is a fail.

i dunno. it's an absolute mystery to me. the OT was never the "Skywalker" saga to me; i think that's something the PT codified for better or for worse.
and even so, Leia (and therefore Ben), are every bit as much Skywalkers as Luke to me.

yeah, it's interesting.

 

Luke providing service to Rey would make sense because she is the main character, but what we get in TLJ is a symbiosis at best (which to me is the worst possible exchange for these characters). He begrudgingly offers her the most rudimentary of instruction at the expense of her playing psychiatrist/motivational coach to him.

She's trying to get him to come back to the fight no? Yes she needs a teacher, and it would've been great if Luke had been up for the job also, but her reason for being there is to get him to come back.

And at no point did they squash the speculation (because it served their purposes). And everyone can blame them for that. It's not like it was an unknown lesson to them, Rian got out ahead of the FS-Finn train early on before TLJ. He knew there was speculation, he knew there were fans that wanted it, he knew he had written no such arc and he squashed it in the VF article saying it wasn't addressed. Again, this is on LFL.

This would be all well and good if she hadn't had the realistic on screen reaction to seeing him in the Force Bond and lashing out at him. That is the realistic and the baked in emotion. Her animus towards Kylo in TFA and afterwards is well established and well deserved. The writer in TLJ doesn't create an organic reason this should end, just utilizes Force Bond and asks us to suspend our disbelief for the sake of his chosen plot (which I decline to do).

I think what we are missing in all this is that, none of this changed view of Kylo is organic - even in-universe. Rey is being manipulated by Snoke. It's Snoke that wants her to believe that Kylo can be turned so that she'll try to come and do it. But the why is the important part here. Yes Snoke taps into the attribute that is both her strength and weakness: "seeing the good in everyone". But the reason why she is going to try to turn Ben, is not for Ben's sake, it's for the sake of the Resistance (and the galaxy); she gives up on trying to convince Luke and literally refers to Ben as their last hope as she leaves.

 

yeah that's pretty much what i was getting at, but wasn't sure if the question itself would be met negatively.

if i didn't have empathy for Ben Solo from that scene on-wards.. i'm not sure i would have enjoyed TLJ

 

I was indifferent to Ben going into TLJ. However since I believe many of the story points that I dislike the most were crafted around the "Empathy Campaign" for Ben, I guess I could count as a data point.

What does it mean to be anti-Ben though? Is it anti-redemption Ben or just anti-Ben period? I was indifferent to a redemption arc for him, but it's one of the things that I think Rian effectively eliminates. I'll listen to arguments to the contrary though.

 

Re-watching the last Jedi I noticed something, Rose’s most hated line “ this is how we win, not fighting what we hate, saving what we love” is an actual foreshadowing to Luke and his force projection at the end.

 

Seems reasonable. I mean, I'm not sure Luke "loved" the Resistance but he certainly loves his sister so, it could work.

 

Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is the one thing keeping me interested in the sequel trilogy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 27, 2018 ---

Good observation.
I have a theory that Rose somehow knew Luke was coming back. Thus saving Finn from a needless sacrifice.

 

oh, good point about Kennedy's remark, though i took that to assume she was referring to Luke, Han & Leia, and Ben, not some other mysterious family we didn't know.

i'm not following. she lashes out and that's realistic, but her coming around to seeing that he's not malicious, just confused (just like she is herself) is not sufficient for you? trying to clarify. because what i see happen over the course of those sessions is that she's angry, she realizes that he's not, then that he has cause to be, and ultimately that the two of them share more in common than not. is it enough to make her do a 180 to think she can go and rescue him? i think this is Rey's folly. and it's deliberately folly: she really thinks this will be that easy.

also, bear in mind, that she somehow knows that Luke brought Vader back, and in this way she thinks she's emulating the best of Luke.

i think this is a false reading of the text. Snoke didn't manipulate Rey, he only connected her to Ben.

as to the why, see my above statement about Luke and Vader. the mirroring here is deliberate by both the writer and the character.
that said, you're right: she's not thinking about Ben and that's why she fails. and her dig at Luke that Ben is their only hope is false bravado (and just false.

this is why when people say Rey is "perfect" i can't see where they're coming from. she makes so many arrogant mistakes in TLJ, it's almost shocking.

interesting; i can totally see how that would color someone's impression of the story overall. but it looks like it's a mixed bag of responses here.

good to know! i think probably once again the reasons for liking/disliking are all over the map. there may be some commonalities, but no general consensus.

i guess i was thinking about people who a.) don't want a redemption arc (for whatever reason), and/or b.) just don't like him as a character (also for whatever reason).

interesting that you think Johnson eliminated the possibility of that arc. Johnson loves Ben.
where you see final failure, i see the door still wide open. XD

 

One of the running themes of TLJ is that just because you are the good guy, you can't expect to just win. Poe Rose and Finn use a halfcocked plan and fail. Rey thinks she can just storm the gates with good thoughts and save Ben...and fails.

 

Yeah, even the villains fail. Then Yoda comes an says "the greatest teacher, failure, is." He puts the cherry on top of the sundae if you will with that theme.

 

That wise little frogman.

How easy would have been to just let them all win in their missions?
Finn and Rose get the codebreaker and disable the hyperdrive tracker.
Poe's mutiny saves the day!
Rey begins to turn Ben, not push him further into darkness!


Oh RJ you crafty devil

 

I don't think he's not confused, he's conflicted; there's a difference. He has chosen the Dark Path, he's still being pulled by the Light. He is aware of that, and aware of the Force, but he isn't confused. Rey can't tell the Dark from the Light (or at least doesn't make any effort to distinguish one from the other that she should engage it). She might be confused. You even said it yourself, he is a train going the opposite direction and she doesn't even realize it. And again, we can't ignore the time frame here. It hasn't been much more than a week. You ask is her coming around to (a false perception that) he isn't malicious not sufficient? No, not in a week. It could happen over time, but not realistically in the time span that TLJ covers... not without some other device or artificial suspension of disbelief by the audience (IMO)

To manipulate her. Snoke knew Kylo's mind; he said as much. He knew when Kylo was wavering in TFA, he knew that killing Han Solo rocked him, and he also knew Kylo wasn't poised to turn back. How exactly he knows Rey's weakness is seeing the best of everyone is anyone's guess but he absolutely plays on it; provides fertile ground for the seeds of her belief to take root. To lure her and Luke back. She isn't able to convince Luke so she goes alone. And again, I have to invoke the time constraints. Luke's evolution with Vader takes place over the span of the OT which is at least 4 years. The total time spent in and between TFA and TLJ by most accounts isn't even a month. I don't think the ice thaws that fast and we are required to suspend our disbelief to aid the plot. There are consequences as a result of picking up immediately after the events of TFA; they should be honored IMO

I suspect it's because people erroneously use "Mary Sue" and "perfect", interchangeably. She is not perfect, nor does she have to be in order to be a "Mary Sue"

LOL, I'd argue Johnson loves Kylo, not Ben. That's part of why I think he attempted to depict Kylo crystallizing into his final forma as the villain and THE leader and fully committed and unwavering (which he very much is at the end on Crait). Is he still emotionally volatile? Sure, but his faith is unshaken now. Ben redemption is as dead as Snoke. I think Rian did his best to stab to death several of the coveted head canon (Luke as Master, Kylo as redeemed, Snoke as mysterious Force User, and Rey as Skywalker). That said I think there were some rumblings about walking back the Rey =/= Skywalker line. Of course, if they do that (or any of the others it invalidates EVERYTHING that has ever been argued in favor of TLJ IMO)

 

that "some other device" is the Force.

Luke shames Han into fighting for the Rebellion with a single line and a sad look. that took all of five seconds maybe?
yeah Han didn't kill his own father or cut down his friend, but everything in proportion.
my point is that it works well enough if you want it to.
it's easy enough to see that Rey and Ben are connected in the Force and therefore instantly know/understand things about each other in a way that regular people can't. they see each other's "future", but also their past. this is stolen right out of the Dark Crystal in which Kira and Jen necessarily have to like each other for the plot to work (especially as they are the last of their kind), and so we conveniently get this "dreamfasting" magic so that we can dispense with lengthy exposition and connect them emotionally in a matter of seconds.

whether that works for you depends entirely on you. you can dismiss it or choose to believe it.
obviously you're choosing the latter, but your argument that it's a time-based flaw (?) doesn't really hold up, i don't think.

he looks pretty shaken to me at the end. not sure how you can interpret a villain to be a leader, fully committed and unwavering, when the last we see of him he's on the floor, alone, literally on his knees, looking up at the girl who's slamming the door in his face.

i'd say maybe Rey looks committed in this moment. heck, Hux looks more committed in this scene.
Ren Ben? not so much; he's still scrabbling around in the dirt for Han's dice, lost in the past.