Was Luke's character assassinated in TLJ?

I'm not claiming that this movie is perfect, far from it. I even acknowledge that ESB has some flaws in it even though it's my favorite movie. I just simply like the direction they want for in TLJ and the good parts of TLJ out weighs the negative parts. Many of the arguments that people dislike the movie can easily be explained and there are some really good arguments out there. There is no way that this movie is way worse than Episode 2. I'm not going to deny that TLJ is a perfect movie, but creating multiple threads over and over when the majority disagree with you is annoying even after people listed good arguments. Sure, I wish I could of seen a Thrawn trilogy Luke but at 65 years old, that story doesn't work. There's only a handful ideas that you do with a character that is 65 years old. Sure, he could be a wise master, but we already seen that with Obi-Wan, it would be boring to see it again. Sure, he could be a crazy eccentric master but we already seen that with Yoda and wouldn't make sense. Now seeing a master who is broken and couldn't live up to his his name much less his legend status, we never seen that before in SW movie and it adds more depth to Luke's character. I want something different out of SW and we got it with TLJ. I like TLJ more than TFA and i've defended TFA too. Lets be real, we are 6 movies and 30 years too late to see Luke in his prime. I'm sure 30 years from now, i'll be different from my current self. Heck I've changed a lot from my 10 year ago self.

 

People dislike TLJ for different reasons, it's hard to fit it all into one thread, just like other SW fan's are not expected to fit all they like about SW into a single thread. The whole point of threads is to explore specifics, get others thoughts on specific instances, good or bad, within the SW universe.

Honestly, I stay away from threads that are all about the greatness of TLJ, my opinion won't be welcome and I appreciate that. Most threads are pretty clear about what it will be discussing. By now we should know that the large majority of people won't be swayed by an others argument. If your goal is to change someone's mind, add to a thread that is more ambiguous. There people may be more open to some out of movie explanation, or another person's take on what they experienced.

 

Aaaand here's the beginning and the end of the Luke debate tbh.
If we were gonna get prime Luke it should have been done in 1993.
Unless you want CGI Luke doing battles a 65 year old Mark Hamill couldn't do...

Now if they want to bring Sebastian Stan in to do some stuff for a stand a lone film or whatever, then that's different.

 

I get that and i'm not trying to sway everyone opinion. We understand some of the flaws of TLJ but most people can look past that and is open to new ideas and can see a bigger picture. If you do research and look at the original reviews of ESB of it's time, we see a similar picture as we see now. But the original point of this thread is to vote for if they "assassinated" Luke or not and I quote the OP.

Clearly 66% of people disagree with him and that number keeps on rising. We've seen all of the of bad points of TLJ and big number of them are petty things that doesn't matter to the overall story. There's been some good counter arguments for the negatives. My point is, no need to create multiple posts of the negatives about the movie when it has already been stated and counter argued back. It gets old and they aren't telling us anything new and other people posting spotty articles that follow their narrative doesn't help either.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2017 ---

Exactly! Heck doing the ST instead of the PT could of worked and a lot of those story lines of the old EU could of worked with the actors age. I think in hindsight, that was a huge mistake and a very big missed opportunity for George IMO. I'm glad that they didn't do any GCI Luke fighting because what they did to Count Dooku and The Emperor/Darth Sidious took me out of those movies. The face mapping on of those actors that portrayed those characters really showed during the fighting scenes. As I stated before, there is only so much story telling that can realistically happen with a 65 year old actor that is way past his prime.

 

While I defended the direction of Luke’s arc in an earlier post I never fully answered the question of, was Luke assassinated?

I find the answer simple. No.

 

So his whole projecting himself across the galaxy to save his friends... wasn't enough I guess?

He sacrificed himself so they could get away. In the end he did what he always did... come to the rescue.

He did the heroic Jedi Master thing and tried to rebuild the order... and it went horribly wrong. He was always full of self doubt. He thought the galaxy was better off without him AND the Jedi... in the end he realized that he was wrong. I think it was all perfectly in character for Luke.

 

That's largely why I've been rather silent. There's no Star Wars film that is going to satisfy this fan base as a whole. I do think it's a character assassination of Luke, designed to make Rey and Ren look good. But I also think the payoff is worth it: Star Wars has the best villian in the current cinema landscape. Rian was laser focused on exploring 'the monster', much to the detriment sadly of the other half of this movie.
@deadmanwalkin009 is right, Hamill is 65 and looked like Charles Bronson in those 'younger':scenes. This should have been done back in 1999, which is what Mark said was going to happen back in 1983. It didn't.[/QUOTE]

 

Let's see -

• Realizes his family member can destroy the people he loves
• Ignites his lightsaber and goes after his own kin to save his loved ones
• Sees what's happening, comes to his senses and stops

Does that make Luke's character assassinated? If so then he's been dead since 1983, because that's when Return of the Jedi premiered. In the Emperor's throne room in Jedi Luke throws down his lightsaber and refuses to fight his father, but Vader looks into Luke's mind and says "You have a twin sister! If you will not turn, perhaps she will!" That's when Luke sprung from the shadows and, blinded by fear, attacked his father.

The Kylo Ren flashback scene mirrors the Jedi Throne Room scene. Luke is tempted to violence because he's blinded by fear. But both times he stops when he realizes what he's doing.

In other words, TLJ Luke behaves exactly like ROTJ Luke in that scene.

As for refusing to care about his friends and loved ones after one failure, I admit you got me there. I understand Luke's reasoning for not wanting to keep training new Jedi, and I can see why he felt it was best to shut himself off from the Force, but it's a stretch to see him not send a postcard to Han and Leia.

Out of character in one aspect? Yes. But character assassination? Nope. This is still Luke Skywalker to me.

 

No.

 

Also, don't forget Luke forced choke 2 pig guards (can't think of there real name) when he entered Jabba's Palace. Those creatures didn't do anything wrong or harmed Luke. He flat out killed them without thinking. A non-Jedi action from my point of view.

 

Killed them? Why on earth would you reach that conclusion? No wonder some are ok with Luke crazy behavior in the new movie.

 

Reasonable conclusion. The guard backs into the wall and then certainly loses consciousness because he slumps down. Could be interpreted as death.

 

I would have never reached that conclusion, not only because it goes against how I expect Luke to behave but also because at that point Luke was attempting to bargain with Jabba.
No wonder opinions about Luke in TLJ are so polarized, we can't even agree on how he behaved in the OT.

 

I have to disagree with you on this.

Luke Force choked them, true. Then he walked right past them to get on with business. He could have chopped off their heads but he didn't. He just Force choked them long enough to walk past them so he wouldn't have to fight them.

 

BINGO, I think you hit the point about SW. Fans can't agree on anything. That's how I saw it when I was 7 when I saw the movie on VHS (pre-SE) and I can still see it now. Then again, from a certain point of view. You can't dispute either point 100% Also if you look closely right before the scene transition, you can see those characters stop moving completely. Either 1 or 2 things happen. 1) there dead or 2) their unconscious.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2017 ---

Fair point, but he could of inadvertently killed them. It's up to the viewers to decide. We're not 100% sure. I think there dead, you do not.

 

Sleeper choke hold.

 

Not only I think they revived Luke in The Last Jedi but they made the character's arc interesting beyond what I expected.

It's like some viewers (and I am not here to judge them) expected Luke to show up in person at the end of the movie and destroy the whole army by himself like Captain America or Hulk.

Luke isn't coward or hiding... he is afraid of his own blood and feel that he has failed as a Jedi Master

Luke's arc post-ROTJ is Luke as a Jedi Master... not as a Jedi Knight.

And.... SPOILERS!

His arc is not finished yet!

I think Luke will play a big part in Episode 9... I think they clearly established in Episode 8 that Jedi in their Spiritual form are more and more able to interact with their surroundings.

It's not the last we've seen from Luke Skywalker.

 

I have to agree, this is to me the most unforgivable moment in TLJ and my head canon will always be that Snoke managed to briefly influence Luke during that "fleeting moment".

Many of us have debated extensively about that scene but I will try again to explain more precisely why it bothers me so much.
Let's think about Luke's behavior towards Vader in the OT. What reasons does Luke have to hate Vader? This man who was first and foremost his enemy in a war, was responsible for murdering his foster parents, murdering his mentor, torturing his sister, destroying her sister's home world, cutting off his hand, threatening to turn her sister into someone like him. Luke's hate for him during the heat of battle was perfectly relatable but despite all the atrocities his father had committed Luke managed to forgive him. Despite everyone's advice he thought there was still hope for his father and decided to sacrifice himself rather than kill him. The Luke from the OT was someone I could identify and empathize with, in fact, If I were in Luke's situation I probably couldn't have managed to forgive my father, his compassion was something admirable and inspiring.
Now the complete opposite happens I could never in my life empathize or identify with Luke's character in TLJ, the idea of contemplating the murder of a family member in their sleep is something I simply could never do, not even if he had already done terrible things, but just because of the possibility?

 

Easy.

Initially, he did hate Vader. Vader killed his father. (allegedly)

Luke, on a mission to save Han and Leia, sees Vader, walks up to him, and without saying a word, pulls a lightsaber on him.

Only after ESB, does Luke have to contemplate doing it differently.

But Luke also was never in the position to stop Vader before it happens. And for a moment, he was, for the first time, in that position. And he was in Ben's mind, seeing whatever he saw, including the death of loved ones.

Sure, Luke had one moment where he turned away from violence. But the majority of his decisions after meeting Kenobi, have been impulsive. He runs into the detention area to rescue Leia. He's confident about getting in a X-Wing and hitting a small exhaust port like he did with his little speeder on Tatooine. He doesn't listen to Yoda....like....ever. He walks into a dark side cave with his lightsaber despite Yoda's warnings. He doesn't believe Yoda's advice on the power of the Force. He finds it difficult not to empty his mind of questions. He just runs off from training despite even Kenobi's warnings.

Sure, I guess it's nice and comfy to assume he learned his lesson at the end of ROTJ. But that betrays the soap opera nature of the series, and the cyclical nature of history. There's no end to learning, and no end to failure. Luke maintains those same impulses to shoot and ask questions later, the same as his father (and Ben's father, ironically enough). The reality is that we make the same mistake over and over, and often don't learn the lesson. To assume that Luke's entire behavior after ROTJ would be dictated by that one important choice, would similarly betray Luke's character prior to that, and consequently his humanity.

Heroes often don't end up in comfy place. Achilles gets shot in the ankle and becomes miserable in the afterlife, preferring to live as a slave (as he admits to Odysseus). Camelot dies with King Arthur. Yoda dies in a hut in a swamp. Hercules dies wearing a poison shirt, like an idiot.

 

You're not Luke. He feared what another Vader could do... he saw that in Ben, he considered killing Vader many times. Luke was always a conflicted character with competing interests and lacking self confidence. He also let fear guide his decisions. Nothing about him in TLJ was out of character. If you consider how he made decisions based on fear of losing the ones he loved, or that he feared he could CAUSE their deaths, like the padawans at his academy, him retreating just showed his lack in confidence that he could protect them, especially after he failed with Ben Solo.