Was Luke's character assassinated in TLJ?

R2 was scanning for life-forms from the falcon.
They then saw the foxes escaping the mines and landed at that point.
To be fair this is hidden in plain sight though.

 

Do we even know he was a child?

There are two timeline possibilities in the ST era cannon

1. Luke has a Jedi school. Around the age of 23-24 Ben Solo finds out his mother and father have never told him he is a descendant of Darth Vader. It is established in cannon no one in the galaxy besides Luke, Han, and Leia know this. This information was discovered in 28 ABY and released by Leia's political opponent to ensure her own hereditary claim to Governor ship of the plant Tarrin. This same political opponent makes a speech in the Senate about how Luke is training new Jedi gives rise to concerns they could use there powers for evil. Sometimes afterwards news of this political scandal reaches Luke's Jedi temple. Kylo gets sad, thinks some bad things, Luke thinks about killing him, gets a house dropped on him, gets grumpy and runs off to die. Ben turns to the dark and joins the first order to worship the helmet of Gramps that he never knew was Gramps until the age of 23-24. Luke is sad because some adults turned on him. This makes Luke, Leia, Han Solo, Ben Solo all psychotic. The baseline reason for the chain of events that leads up to TFA is petty at best. So what dead old Darth Vader is secret Gramps. Big Deal get over it.

2. Luke has a Jedi Temple and no one in the Galatic Senate know where they are, what they are doing, that Ben Solo some unknown time before the age of 23 gets sad, thinks some bad things, Luke thinks about killing him, gets a house dropped on him, gets grumpy and runs off to die. Ben Solo turns a bunch of kids against Luke. Luke runs off to die. In this scenario Luke is a psychotic dude that takes kids from the parents. No one knows where they are and what they are doing as referenced in scenario 1 that even the Galatic Senate thinks everything is fine at Luke Skywalker school. The idea the entire galaxy is allowing Luke "Jim Jones" Skywalker to take children and run off is psychotic.

 

Maybe a bit. I have no problem accepting Hermit-Luke (in fact his character is the most interessting in TLJ imo). In canon I think it makes perfect sense that he went into hiding (that's what he saw from both of his masters), but they should've explored the idea far better.

I really liked the ending though and I think it is the story I'll accept in my headcanon. What Rian did there was fantasic.
Luke not only managed to become a legend again, to inspire pretty much everyone in the Galaxy, to win the day, to save everyone and destory (also to strike fear into) the enemy, but found a way to do it without using any bit of violence, anger, hatred or anything associated with the dark side. That is imo the greatest achievement to any jedi both in canon and in the old EU and especially for Luke, who's arc was pretty much about fighting his own darkness. He defeated it in RotJ and stone carved it in TLJ.

I actually never expected his story to be this good. Just like everyone, I was also waiting for him to be just a regular overpowered dozen- badass who'll destroy armies with a blink. I'm gald they've chosen this path.

Very well said, though this is still not enough for him to give up everything imo. But at least he has a reason to get exiled.
The prequels did far worse with both Obi-wan and Yoda, espeically Yoda. He's a 900 years old experienced grandmaster, who's seens pretty much everything possible, he barely even lost against Sidious, yet goes into exile?! Never made sense to me. In comparison everything was new to Luke. He never really even failed in his life. Him losing Ben and the apprentices was probably incredibly devastating to a young master.

He did a terrible job though. He not only let him be named Skywalker, but brought him to the planet Vader will most likely revisit...
Also, the Tusken Raiders could've very easely killed Luke if it wasn't for his great dodge skills. Oh, it was the Force I guess...
He did a great job protecting the Lars family as well.

Yoda chosed a very interessting way of not giving up. Was he planning to cook soup until Luke miraculously pops op a 20-ish years later?

 

We know Ben Solo was born in 5 ABY, and his massacre at the temple happened somewhere between 28 ABY and 34 ABY (presumably erring closer to 28). That would make him, at a minimum, 22 or 23 years old at the time of the massacre.

Luke himself was just barely older than that by the time he confronted Palpatine and Vader (and significantly younger when he joined the Rebellion). Heck, Anakin was 22/23 when he was annointed as Darth Vader.

Kylo would probably not be viewed as a "child" at that point.

Now, it does seem out of character for Luke to kill his own nephew, regardless of age. But that's why it doesn't happen. It's a low point for him. After his entire journey in the original trilogy of learning how compassion is more effective than violence, it would simply be ridiculous for him to give in to violence in this case. Yet, while we see that he still struggles with violence, he has not forgotten his lesson.

In fact, this is further compounded by his wholly nonviolent approach at the end of the film. They cleverly managed to give Luke room to grow in this film- that's not character assassination, it's storytelling.

 

Very well said and I think this is a fantastic argument who says the Like in TLJ is the same Luke from the past.

 

My interpretation is Luke rejects organised religion and eventually finds his own spiritual path in terms of how he relates to the force. Gaining wisdom from drawing his own conclusions, as many of us do.

I always found his character arc pretty contrived in ROTJ and I think TLJ fixes this to some degree. I see his power and strength in ROTJ coming from motivation to save his father rather than Jedi wisdom gained from just a couple of days training from Yoda, which he ultimately failed in.

How we find him in TLJ makes perfect sense considering he was never the complete Jedi package. He's just someone who was naturally very powerful with the force living in a world where there are no Jedi to mix with, learn from or guide him. His "I'm a Jedi Master" claim in ROTJ is questionable considering he was taught at too late an age, his training limited at best, never was Padwan or did any trials. I doubt the Jedi Council would have given him that title. However this context is perfect for a character arc for someone who later comes to critic the Jedi order. He was not conditioned from young and immersed in a Jedi environment so is more likely to be able to objectively look at it from the outside in.

Given the context of his experience / journey and isolation I would speculate that after ROTJ he studies the history of the Jedi and their failures and naturally takes a cynical view of the Jedi order resulting in him loosing faith.

Saying the Jedi must end comes across as a criticism of organised religion and in my opinion that's a big factor in the backlash over Luke in this film.

 

If you think TLJ is intellectual, I have a show for you!

 

I don't believe he left a map behind. From what I can recall, it was believed that he went to the jedi temple. There were scholars who knew where they could find it. From what I know, he didn't make a map

 

I agree Luke didn’t make the map or leave it behind. The larger map that R2 as well as the FO had came from Imperial archives. R2 got it from the Death Star. The smaller part of the map was discovered by Lor San Tekka and that is why both the Resistance and the FO were racing to Jakku to get it. Luke was not intending to be found.

 

I have to admit I am still not quite happy with Luke considering to kill Kylo, even if it was only for a second. I mean his dad was a genocidal Sith who was second in command in a dictatorship that killed many of Luke's friends including his foster parents. It seems hard to believe he would consider killing a child in his sleep to a degree where he sneaks into the bedroom of Kylo and ignites the lightsaber. How about kicking him out of the academy? He sensed a tiny bit of good left in Vader and tried to save him. But he sensed a tiny bit of bad in Kylo and decided to kill him? Shouldn't his experiences in the OT make him believe even stronger not to give up on people no matter how lost they seem? I don't know. I was fine with the rest but this one scene felt really out of character.

They should have done a flashback where Kylo duels another student during a training session at the academy and during the fight gets so enraged that he almost kills his opponent. Luke freaks out and forcechockes Kylo for a a brief moment until he comes back to his senses. This scene would achieve a couple of things that weren't done that well in TLJ.
a) Luke attacking Kylo would have been an over the top reaction rather than a creepy guy standing over a sleeping child considering to kill it.
b) It would have been less vage than "I felt the a little bit of evil in him". Kylo would have show clear signs of giving in to the dark side and make it more relateable why Luke reacted so strongly.
c) The outcome would be the same. Luke would blame himself for using a darkside ability on his nephew, Kylo would see all fault in Luke and burn down the academy.

 

"Luke thought for a moment about killing Kylo when he sensed Snoke had turned his heart, even though when it came to his mass murdering maniac father, all he ever wanted to do was save him???!!The real Luke would have never considered killing Kylo, even for a moment!"



Yeah Luke never ever thought about killing Vader. Not even for a moment. Nope. Definitely not.


I think my new dedicated reply to 90% of TLJ criticism is "ever seen the OT???"

I've been religiously watching and loving the OT films for 30 years now, and I can't believe most of the criticisms of TLJ I'm hearing. Especially the ones in this thread.

OT Luke was a sassy, sometimes unhinged, anxious young guy, who despite having some character faults, had a good heart and good intentions. He was NEVER some all powerful monk-esque Jedi, and we never had indication that he would become that.

He was a somewhat flawed, but good-hearted dude. A relatable hero. A great one for Star Wars; not a film franchise about endless semantics and laws, but about relatable characters, fun, heart, the struggle of good versus evil, and escaping to a new place.

 

Exactly. One of the reasons ESB is such a great sequel to ANH is because we see that the characters have grown together and much time has passed, but they're still very familiar in their own way.

With TLJ, it's exponentially so. The Luke we see by the end of the film is frankly transcendental, but he doesn't start there- and the earliest we see of him (being that flashback) shows a character who is in some ways more similar to the Luke we left in ROTJ- not perfect, but still striving for compassion and the true Jedi way.

 

Can a mod please delete this post? I'd rather expand on it, and have a seperate thread, and I don't want to litter the forum with double posts. I'm sorry for the trouble...

 

Kick him out of the academy so he could really get those dark side vibes flowing.

 

Most of the people who say that Luke in TLJ wasn't the Luke they "remember" want this Luke. Luke who helps his friends. No emotional or psychological conflict. Luke who controls the world, just like these fans want to control theirs (hence the dubious fan petitions):

A rather boring Luke that is. I'll take these two Lukes anytime:

and

I've said it many times before, but hese two clips represent The Last Jedi Luke. A Luke without a deep psychological conflict, like the fundamental dilemma of saving friends and destroying everything versus throwing away the sabre and trusting the force, is no Luke.

- Training Ben Solo was Luke helping his friends and family. It ended in disaster, just like his trip to Cloud City.
- Going into exile, throwing away the sabre, was the logical response. It was the higher wisdom he had gained through his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. It is what his masters did. It represents Luke's acceptance of their higher wisdom. The kind of wisdom that comes with age.

Luke's conflict in TLJ revolves around formulating a response to this inner conflict. How to marry the best of two fundamentally opposing actions. He found a solution: self-sacrifice. Not fighting, can be a potent weapon and example for others to follow.





Isn't this exactly what Luke did. Visualize that scene with Luke and the Walkers? No more potent images of the power of violence-less resistance in our age than these two images. Now there is Luke. Think about it.

 

I wouldn't call it an assassination. We simply did not see enough of Luke and Ben in the flashbacks to really judge whether his actions made sense at the time. On face value, then yes, I agree with Mark Hamill. This isn't the same character he played in the original films. But I feel like some expanded canon piece, like a Jedi Academy comic book or animated short, can justify it.

 

That's a good point- the exact reasons for Luke's fears were left relatively vague. They could've been really, really bad.

 

Then lock him up. Put him in detention. Abandon him on some desolate planet. Do some group therapy with some wise forceghosts. A Luke who never gave up on his father when everyone else had would probably have a better idea than killing his teenage student.

 

HIs fears aren't vague at all... he was scared of creating another Darth Vader! He was right!

 

Frankly, I would have thought a better angle they could have taken was that Luke was dying. He was on the island for his last days and that he just could not go help Leia. His last act was to train Rey. That would have been a very interesting story.